Buying 18 rated games for the under aged.

[Ktw]

Can anyone give me a valid reason why a 15 year old should not be allowed to play Manhunt

Because every time someone under 18 gets his or her hands on a copy of Manhunt* you have a potential news article telling us the shocking story of how children are playing totally amoral games. And then the uneducated masses will believe that games like Manhunt and GTA are cynical attempts to flog violence to kids.

And that, frankly, could affect the chances of more great games with slightly questionable subject matters being released. Agreed, loads of these games are cynical attempts to flog crap to kids, but some titles, such as Manhunt, stand out, not despite their violence, but because they manage to build a terrible but brilliant game experience through it.

*) insert any 18 rated game here.

[Ste Pickford]

If he didn't posess the amount of teenage swagger required to waltz up to the counter and try to buy it himself then, chances are, he was far too young. Any kid too timid to risk getting a telling off from a game shop employee might get quite scared by an 18 rated game.

If he'd been knocked back at the counter he would have learned a lesson in dealing with failure and rejection. Chances are he would have tried it on somewhere else until he got hold of the game. The kid would have learned a valuable lesson in perserverance by doing so. If the kid's going to do something that is legally and morally dubious he might as well learn some other values to balance things out.

All true, but he showed initiative and he ended up with the game in his hand, so his strategy was successful.

[(Bad Egg)]

I'm under 18 and I have Manhunt, WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO!?

To be honest it isn't even that violent, well not compaired to SOF 2 which is the most violent game ever.

Granted the tone of the game is much darker and the language cruder, but I knew what fuck meant when I was 7.

[Venice Cull]

All true, but he showed initiative and he ended up with the game in his hand, so his strategy was successful.

He STUCK IT TO THE MAN!

[scottcr]

He STUCK IT TO THE MAN!

he held 3 fingers aloft and declared "READ BETWEEN THE LINES MAN"

[kamrantaz]

I used to sell 18 games to 14 years olds when i worked in retail. It was a public service. I even sold a billion odd copies of GTA:Vice City to parents of 10 year olds with a clean conscience.

[(Bad Egg)]

I used to sell 18 games to 14 years olds when i worked in retail. It was a public service. I even sold a billion odd copies of GTA:Vice City to parents of 10 year olds with a clean conscience.

Hangin's to good for you.

[Sekiro]

Kids these days have got no fucking imagination, we used to dress up, mail order, phone fake and anything else that would work to get 18 rated videos and the like. What a little pussy this kid must have been!

[kamrantaz]

Hangin's to good for you.

Any sales assistant that refuses to sell GTA to a 15 year old needs a slapping.

Goat Keeper should have administered a summary beating on the little mutha at GS that wouldnt sell the game.

[CouldBeWorse]

Any sales assistant that refuses to sell GTA to a 15 year old needs a slapping.

Yeah, anyone who refuses to break the law is scum and needs a good slapping.

[DJ Sack]

Any sales assistant that refuses to sell GTA to a 15 year old needs a slapping.

Goat Keeper should have administered a summary beating on the little mutha at GS that wouldnt sell the game.

Yes because all sales assistants like getting a criminal record, paying out a huge fine and being sacked from their job. IT IS ILLEGAL!

Its like saying its alright to rape people if you dont know them, because whats the harm? they dont know who u are.

[Jack]

Of course it is - But the average episode of "Dragonball Z" could easily lend itself the same reenactment.

Yes, I see kids standing around in the streets, issuing threats for 27 episodes at a time before running at each other and slapping each other, eventually taking to the skies and throwing beams at each other.

Any sales assistant that refuses to sell GTA to a 15 year old needs a slapping

WTF

[kamrantaz]

As if anyone is going to get done for it,

If the parents consent then its not my problem. Its a great game and everyone should play it. I cant be 100% sure its for the 10 year old. The mum could be a hardcore gamer.

besides.... you're telling me little jonny can shag little sally left right and centre when they turn 16 but he cant handle a game character shagging a prostitute?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Its like saying its alright to rape people if you dont know them, because whats the harm? they dont know who u are.

That's the most stupid analogy ever.

[scottcr]

I used to sell 18 games to 14 years olds when i worked in retail. It was a public service. I even sold a billion odd copies of GTA:Vice City to parents of 10 year olds with a clean conscience.

you're THE MAN

[DJ Sack]

I never said i was good at analogy's

And kamrantaz, people do often get prosecuted for it if there are complaints, and while jonny may shag little sally, hopefully its by concent, doing it in game carries no concent or conciequences, you may go to jail, but you back out after 3 seconds sans 100 pounds.

[Alexlotl]

Just for reference, if you were in HMV and some kid gave you an 18 rated DVD to buy for him, would you?

In response to Ste's post about censorship; no, I'm not suggesting rolling over and accepting all forms of censorship. If I had a 15 year old son I'd happily let him watch Robocop, or whatever - but it would be my right to choose, as the legally responsible adult. As a parent, how would you feel if you found out your 15 year old child had asked a complete stranger to buy an 18 rated game for them, and that the stranger had acquiesced?

Cloney

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Har Har

But seriously, the kid wants a game and you give it to him. Big deal. If he breaks his back while 'play-pretending', it'll be another lesson learnt on his way to adulthood. You can't lock children up in a cage until they're 'old enough' to experience the world. It's all around them, and they are part of it. And they will explore all avenues, whether you'd like them too or not. So yes, this includes violent games, pornography, alcohol, drugs and stuff like that. If you want to keep all of that out of the reach of children/youngsters, you'll probably grow a frustrated mass that Al Qaeda would be proud of.

[Jack]

Just for reference, if you were in HMV and some kid gave you an 18 rated DVD to buy for him, would you?

Cloney

I've had this happen to me a few times, and each time I've said no. Why should I? It's not like I owe them anything.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

In Holland nobody will ask you anything if you buy something with an age rating, except for alcohol, cannabis or cigarettes. I was pretty shocked and offended when I came to England, bought a OPM2(!) with a rating on the disc, and the woman behind the counter asked me my age, even though I was 24 at the time. When I buy something, I don't feel like I owe an explanation to anyone, and rather have people mind their own business instead of mine.

[c-cat114]

This is the most depressing conversation I`ve seen on rllm... or maybe it`s just `cos I`ve had a really cruddy day but what the heck.

Anyhow, you`re so obviously right. The rule, as set by obviously unsuitable adults who don`t understand you at all, is totally unfair and unsupportable. by these measures you, standing up to them makes you a hero! a modern day Robin Hood! You`ve opened this kids horizons!! Just think what he could achieve now that he`s played a game that allows him to act and become more adult!

Come to think of it there`s bucket loads of rules that don`t apply to `you`. Hey man you`re bigger than the rules! Why stop there. I`m sure you can make a list of rules that don`t apply, because you understand so much more, have such a clearer understanding of the world. Kids can watch, play, drink and smoke anything. They`re adult enough at 2 to walk aren`t they? Whats the nappy for anyhow we could use them ourselves when we`re bladdered. Scientists that tell us that cultural influences have a negative effect on childrens viewpoints of the world hey just wheel out media friendly psychogamer Mark Griffin or whatever his name is. He makes us feel better. After all, kids can do watch and play what they want and there is so obviously not a rapidly spiralling catalog of crappy behaviour and teen criminality surrounding us. and if there is who cares!

Joyriding for example! Insurance pays for that. Cool. Ripping off someones phone no probs, they`ll just get another one etc etc blah blah. rules are, quite obviously and demonstrably for wimps. If you can bypass one you can bypass another. Lesson learnt now what can I go for for myself.

Me I`ll stick to the rules but then again I`m a bit of a fifties throwback like that. You go for your `crap on the next guy` utopia. As long as you`re not the next guy, the one who has his car nicked by teens, the one who gets mugged by a drunken gang because they need more money and all that... Well as long as you`re not that one your sorted.

((maybe a smidge of an overreaction but what the hey. Seen kids crapped all over the place over the past few years. sticking to a few rules would help all concerned..))

[chipsgravy]

I can't believe how hypocritical everyone here has been. I bet that everyone of you has seen an 18 rated movie well before you were 18. Yea its wrong and its against the law. But can you honestly say its affected you. Anyway Backyard Wrestling??? Hardly anyworse than a WWE game now is it. Content wise I mean.

Chip

[JPickford (retired mod)]

  I bet that everyone of you has seen an 18 rated movie well before you were 18. Yea its wrong and its against the law.

No it isn't.

Nor is it illegal to play an 18 rated game before you are 18.

It's only illegal to SELL 18 rated games to children.

[Soo Denim]

Goat Keeper,

The problem I have is not to do with the kid having the game (that is not up to you or I to decide it is an 18 and how ever you explain it you hhave broken the law), nor the fact that the shop staff "lectured you" ('cause in all truth he was just doing his job, maybe a tad zealous, but still his job), nor that you called him a cunt (though that does offend me, how would you like someone calling you a cunt while doing your job.)

The real issue is one of the view of the industry in general. Near enough all of us on here and ntsc-uk (the pigeonholed hardcore), have been anoyed about Daily Mail articles slagging the industry. Every Christmass we get informed by the media that are hobby is sick and depraved (oooh just look at GTA "you can kill hookers"), that those of us in the industry are peddling kiddy filthy to destroy the moral soul of the youth of today.

So we shout, we scream and we protest. We point to the good that games do (i.e. penny arcades charity drive) we talk about how we need to educate parents in to taking more responsibility, that games are over 25 fears old, that gamers have now grown up and that adult games are made for an adult audience. In the same way that disney games are designed for children (I'm sure most of us already know our ABC's and maths timetables.)

Finally we take postive action, elspa and the pegi ratings are designed to show this. We can hold our heads up high and show that we are a mature industry that we make games for all ages. That we are also worried about games getting in to the wrong hands, we spend a fortune training staff in stores and trying to make our hobby/industry be self regulated and respected. To stop the lingering view that this is a sick hobby.

The problem with your actions is that it undermines all this hard work. Yes I know its a one off and only a "bloody wrestling game" that it won't "destroy the space time continum". But you don't know if this was a sting by a tabloid journalist, or that the kids parents are not going to complain to both gamestation and/or the news papers about there kidd being being sold porn.

So in conclusion though it is not as bad as giving kids porn, alcohol or drugs in a moral sense. But in a legal sense it is, you have quite easily got the gamestation employe in shit, you have in a small way set back the hardwork of a lot of people and finally next time the industry gets slated in the press you have lost your right to complain or be offended.

sorry if this sounds harsh, keep

J

I'll crawl back under my rock now, might post again next year

[Jim Miles]

I hear there's serious money to be made hanging around game shops taking kids money to buy 18-rated games then instantaneously denying they gave you a penny.

Seriously though, I'd buy a minor an 18-rated game if I thought they should be allowed to play it. It's a matter of principle. I wouldn't call the guy behind the counter a twat though. I once bought some youngish teenagers some alcohol at the local supermarket (on a council estate). I kind of regret it, but in the long run I guess it doesn't make a great difference.

[Jim Miles]

and how ever you explain it you hhave broken the law

Has he really though?

[PaB]

I take it those arguing for the BBFC ratings and the need to adhere to them, are quite happy for scenes to be taken out of films / games because the "authorities" deem them too disturbing for you to see.

Ninja Gaiden , for example.

The thing , you see, as a parent, you do set certain rules in place - but you have to also understand, that in the big wide world, we do not live in a utopia of peace and harmony. My oldest goes to High School every day, and faces sex, violence, drugs etc far more real than any game or film could ever hope to be. All you can do is make sure that in the build up to that environment you have done the best you can to make sure they dont go off the rails.

Now this is obviously a much wider issue than just a age restricted videogame - But, if I said to my oldest, "no, you cannot have that game" or "you cant watch that film" all the time do you really think that would be an end to it? Of course not - he would play/watch in this own time, without me knowing it is happening. It is far better to be involved - To watch the film with him, to talk about it with him after. To play the game with him, and chat about it - to see what he thinks etc.

Beleive you me, without trying to sound patronising, when you become parents, you will face these issues,. and you will let you high morales slide in the interests of your childrens passing into young adulthood.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Has he really though?

No.

[Bobby Digihill]

I do feel sorry for the goofy kid in question. Backyard wrestling? I'd be less embarrassed asking a stanger where one could get a back alley abortion or some back door love.

[The Liberal Elite]

I take it those arguing for the BBFC ratings and the need to adhere to them, are quite happy for scenes to be taken out of films / games because the "authorities" deem them too disturbing for you to see.

Ninja Gaiden , for example.

taken out because htey're too disturbing for the Germans to see, you mean.

there are beheadings all over the shop in other games.