The Last Samurai

[Thread Owner]

Bloody brilliant stuff! Made Kill Bill look distinctly average - although that's hardly difficult...

The village battle was fantastic, and the general swordplay seemed pretty psychotic at times.

[dizogg]

Bloody brilliant stuff! Made Kill Bill look distinctly average - although that's hardly difficult...

You're such a controversy mongering little bitch.

[Juria]

Most decent swordplay movies make Kill Bill look like plops, everyone was waving their swords around like a child with a pretend lightsabre in Kill Bill. Only the GoGo fight was well done, and that's because the actress probably bothered to train, unlike the rest of the cast.

[Vemsie]

Pfff. Kill Bill is by far the better movie.

[Juria]

Give reasons other than 'it's a bloodbath!' and 'it was written by Tarantino, it has to be better!'

[Vemsie]

First of all Last Samurai is a bastardization of samurai culture and full of Hollywood cliches (the Gajin fallin in love with a Japanese girl, oh please) . It takes itself very serious but is as unrealistic as...well....Kill Bill. But that move at least doesn't pretend to be.

Kill Bill (the whole movie) is better shot, more inventive, better written, has better music, better characters, is funnier, gorier, more touching, has the better visuals and uses all kinds of funky tricks from the book of film making. Anime, split screen, tracking shots, a different screen ratio for the live burial scene, crazy pans and zooms... And Pai Mei. It's a rollercoaster of a movie. Last Samurai on the other hand is another Pearl Harbour.

[linkster]

The fights in both are utter garbage, camera's all over the place disguising the stunt people. Rent yourself a decent martial arts flick and see how they should be done.

[Juria]

I won't bother listing them, quite a lot are in the Hong Kong Legends/ Premier Asia thread

[DC Lemon]

The Last Samurai was an enjoyable cinematic experience, but it's not a proper samurai film. If Tom Cruise and Billy Connolly had nothing to do with it, and it wasn't made as a 'Hollywood' movie, then it could have been a samurai film and a good one. I think someone on Five Live said it was Top Gun with planes replaced by samurai swords, or Days of Thunder with cars replaced by... you know.

Anyway, I saw Zatoichi this weekend. Didn't think too much of it. I'd have thought more if it hadn't received such lofty praise, including stuff written on this forum. You just can't help but feel disappointed by these three films - Kill Bill, The Last Samurai and Zatoichi - when you've grown up on Kurosawa.

[Vemsie]

Comparing Kill Bill to something like Seven Samurai is comparing apples and oranges. They're completely different films. The only thing they have in common are the samurai swords.

[Pete]

well said vemsie. I'm growing tired of people comparing Kill Bill to every eastern action film ever made. boooring.

I personally enjoyed all films mentioned so far, so there, and all for different reasons. Its like comparing two completely different films just because they are both made in america and feature guns.

[linkster]

I'm growing tired of people comparing Kill Bill to every eastern action film ever made. boooring.

But this thread is specifically about the fight choreography, and it's rubbish. I don't know what Tarantino wanted Kill Bill to be and I'm certainly not going to argue about it, but the fights can easily be compared with other big movies that pulled it off (the first Blade for example, or any Jackie Chan movies). Watch Kill Bill or Samurai and then stick on Crouching Tiger. They're so poor by comparison it's embarrassing, and a lot of that comes down to the fact that neither Tom Cruise nor Uma Thurman can fight convincingly, so why make them the star of movies based around fighting? not only that but fighting they don't have a hope of pulling off convincingly.

[Juria]

If the movies were ONLY about guns then it would be okay to compare them. Do you see?

[Vemsie]

See, I love the fights in HK movies but I also love the House of Blue Leaves sequence in Kill Bill or the fight between the Bride and Go Go. I certainly wouldn't call it rubbish.

[Juria]

Where Go Go gets killed by a nail slightly imbedded in her skin! lamest death evar Apart from the big baddie in Return To OZ. EGGS ARE POISON!!!!!!111

[Guest]

The fights in both are utter garbage, camera's all over the place disguising the stunt people. Rent yourself a decent martial arts flick and see how they should be done.

Ohhh! Ok name one I should watch.

[Vemsie]

Ohhh! Ok name one I should watch.

Once Upon a Time in China (II), Fist of Legend, The Prodigal Son, Iron Monkey, Hero, Ong Bak, The Blade, Drunken Master II, Supercop, Musa, Azumi and Drive.

This site is great when it comes to Asian (related) movies.

[Guest]

But this thread is specifically about the fight choreography, and it's rubbish. I don't know what Tarantino wanted Kill Bill to be and I'm certainly not going to argue about it, but the fights can easily be compared with other big movies that pulled it off (the first Blade for example, or any Jackie Chan movies). Watch Kill Bill or Samurai and then stick on Crouching Tiger. They're so poor by comparison it's embarrassing, and a lot of that comes down to the fact that neither Tom Cruise nor Uma Thurman can fight convincingly, so why make them the star of movies based around fighting? not only that but fighting they don't have a hope of pulling off convincingly.

Ok here's the thing. I'm a big fan of Jackie Chan films. I love em.

But hey Samurai was really about swords! Yeah Samurai warriors with swords! Woo! You don't get many films which really stick to something like this, and I'm glad that it did. Jackie Chan is brilliant at what he does...but I've not seen him whirling a Katana about a lot.

Ok so perhaps the choreography wasn't upto your high standards, but I thought it was great stuff!

[Guest]

You're such a controversy mongering little bitch.

Well I watched Kill Bill vol 1 recently and was meh.

I watched Samurai yesterday and was WOOO! YEAH!

Anything wrong with sharing my happiness at the film? I might watch it again now JUST TO SPITE YOU!

[Guest]

Once Upon a Time in China (II), Fist of Legend, The Prodigal Son, Iron Monkey, Hero, Ong Bak, The Blade, Drunken Master II, Supercop, Musa, Azumi and Drive.

This site is great when it comes to Asian (related) movies.

Got, Got, Got, Not, Not, Not, Not, Got, Got, Not, Not, Not.

*edit* oh and actually what about the big running fight scene at the end of Police Story? That's like a defining point for Kung Fu films EVAH!!11

Plus Wheels on Meals of course, and the final castle assault.

But out of the ones I don't have, which is mostly "Swordy". And which are Japanese, as opposed to Hong Kong made?

[Juria]

the Gajin fallin in love with a Japanese girl, oh please

[DC Lemon]

Watch Kill Bill or Samurai and then stick on Crouching Tiger. They're so poor by comparison it's embarrassing, and a lot of that comes down to the fact that neither Tom Cruise nor Uma Thurman can fight convincingly, so why make them the star of movies based around fighting?

Yes, this is what I was getting at. As a Tom Cruise vehicle, The Last Samurai is very good. However, if it wasn't made as a Tom Cruise vehicle, it could have been a very good samurai movie.

[Guest]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Pete]

Disciple, have you seen any Kurosawa samurai films?

they fill me with all the samurai goodness I need.

[Vemsie]

But out of the ones I don't have, which is mostly "Swordy". And which are Japanese, as opposed to Hong Kong made?

Azumi is the answer to both of your questions.

[Guest]

Disciple, have you seen any Kurosawa samurai films?

they fill me with all the samurai goodness I need.

Yes indeed! Seven Samurai is probably the greatest film ever. I also greatly enjoyed the comedic undertones in Yojimbo - the fight scene at the end of that was superb.

Hidden Fortress I wasn't so keen on, but you can clearly see where Lucas sourced the driods from, and also the Star Wars "Screen wide" effect.

I've also seen RAN, which was just mental. Literally!

[taiAtari]

The swordplay in Kill Bill is very bad in light of proper swordfighting and it spoils some of the fun for me as I know some basic swordfighting principles. For a regular moviegoer it's just fine though and looks great, so I don't think it's fair to criticise it too much (a bit like two pistols at the same time being wholly impractical but still cool in John Woo films).

The swordplay in the last samurai is a lot better though still quite Hollywood. I don't really understand the accusations of it being ' Pearl Harbour with swords' (if anything, it is 'Dances with samurai'). It's a completely romanticised modern view of samurai. Although its historical facts are way off it seems to be an outspoken anti-American and anti-capitalistic movie, quite a rarity nowadays you'll have to admit and quite far removed from the premise of Top Gun and Pearl.

I still think Zatoichi outshines both, for the humanity and characters the film has. Pretty accurate swordplay too, fights are basically over in one cut, none of this parrying you see going on in a lot of movies. Also a lot of inept swordsmen and a few very adept that are highly respected/feared.

[Guest]

Azumi is the answer to both of your questions.

Good stuff, where would I get hold of a copy?