The perfect 10

[MK-1601]

this just gets better and better. you don't see how Halo has changed the landscape yet two of the biggest FPS's on PC right now you admit were directly influenced by it.

Bingo. Two of the biggest FPSs on the PC right now. (Both of which are, to be honest, incremental or filler titles, particularly Far Cry which will certainly be overshadowed very soon- see also Medal of Honour, Call of Duty.) (And neither of which, for all the superficial influence, play anything like Halo.)

The Halo 'style' is an offshoot (flavour of the month, if you will, like the waves of stealth, team-based or simulation-style FPS hybrids) rather than a reinvention of the genre.

But again it comes back to the '2 genres' point. It's in no way controversial to observe that Halo, as a package, makes advances that are more relevant (or more applicable) to improving console FPS games than FPS games full stop.

[MK-1601]

It's taken you quite some time to pick up that handbag Rantin'\Auditor\Random Psychotic.  A bit too heavy?  Full of rubbers for future roastings no doubt.

Haven't you been banned again yet?

Good to see that you still assume people change their user names for anonymity, Dan/Phreak. People who matter know who I am.

[Alex W.]

Edit- Just to clarify, I'm making the point that there was an interesting discussion in this idea, i.e. just how influential does a game have to be before it's revolutionary, but it's turned into a load of yabbering, looping shite saying that Halo is/isn't worthy of the superlative form of "influential". I mean, honestly

[D-Side]

Coming from a man with three (or possibly more) identities on this forum alone, that's a pretty hilarious remark.

[MK-1601]

Coming from a man with three (or possibly more) identities on this forum alone, that's a pretty hilarious remark.

Usernames* = identities now?

Carry on.

*Of which I've only had one previous on this forum, and that was intended to be temporary until it was clear that nut-jobs like yourself hadn't made the transition from Edge's forum. A shame you eventually came back.

[Andy_Tanner]

Bingo. Two of the biggest FPSs on the PC right now. (Both of which are, to be honest, incremental or filler titles, particularly Far Cry which will certainly be overshadowed very soon- see also Medal of Honour, Call of Duty.) (And neither of which, for all the superficial influence, play anything like Halo.)

The Halo 'style' is an offshoot (flavour of the month, if you will, like the waves of stealth, team-based or simulation-style FPS hybrids) rather than a reinvention of the genre.

But again it comes back to the '2 genres' point. It's in no way controversial to observe that Halo, as a package, makes advances that are more relevant (or more applicable) to improving console FPS games than FPS games full stop.

listen you mentioned Far Cry and UT04, i haven't even played them unless you count demos and they're hardly the only titles to bear Halo's influence.

how can you call Halo flavour of the month when it was released almost three years ago?!

the genres you talk about exist only in your head, you're referring to two different platforms, that's all.

edit. you're not Auditor?

[D-Side]

Usernames* = identities now?

Carry on.

*Of which I've only had one previous on this forum, and that was intended to be temporary until it was clear that nut-jobs like yourself hadn't made the transition from Edge's forum. A shame you eventually came back.

So, which Rantin are you? The increasingly irritating one, or the one who thinks you're a bit of a tit?

[MK-1601]

listen you mentioned Far Cry and UT04, i haven't even played them unless you count demos and they're hardly the only titles to bear Halo's influence.

how can you call Halo flavour of the month when it was released almost three years ago?!

the genres you talk about exist only in your head, you're referring to two different platforms, that's all.

I didn't intend to call Halo 'flavour of the month' (although I notice that that's how it reads. Crap.). In any case, 'flavour of the month' is a figure of speech. 'The current direction that is being explored' for the literal minded.

If there is no distinction between the two genres, why have virtually all crossovers been unsuccessful? Is there much of an overlap between the design conventions and gameplay? At their furthest extremes (e.g. GoldenEye, Half-Life) there are practically none, save for the fact you're shooting at things from the first person.

[Alex W.]

Same could be said of Quake 3 and Half-Life though. Duh.

Goldeneye is comparable to something like, say, Unreal 2 (which was loaded with hilarious Halo-rip offs) or Red Faction in terms of level design.

[D-Side]

I'm glad I haven't played Red Faction enough to draw comparison.

[Alex W.]

I'm glad I haven't played Red Faction enough to draw comparison.

I've not played it much either, but I've gone through a lengthy demo. It just screamed "Linear, boring-as-fuck FPS with the restrictions of Goldeneye and the design skill of Hugo".

Sometimes I just get a feeling about games, y'know?

[MK-1601]

Same could be said of Quake 3 and Half-Life though. Duh.

Goldeneye is comparable to something like, say, Unreal 2 (which was loaded with hilarious Halo-rip offs) or Red Faction in terms of level design.

Fair point.

To put it another way, could you design an FPS without the target platform in mind? By Tanner's logic (unless I'm horribly misrepresenting him), you could, because the game would essentially be the same regardless of the underlying hardware. It seems to me though that design decisions throughout pretty much any FPS are influenced by the characteristics of the platform (input, screen type, multiplayer, etc.).

At the end of the day you can slice the cake however you like, but I personally find this distinction useful.

[D-Side]

I've not played it much either, but I've gone through a lengthy demo. It just screamed "Linear, boring-as-fuck FPS with the restrictions of Goldeneye and the design skill of Hugo".

Whoop whoop. Are we saying that Goldeneye is restrictive now? I mean, it's contained, but for such relatively small and simple levels, they are pretty unrestrictive.

[dan_tm]

OoooOoooh. I was in a meeting.

Short answer: It only revolutionises console FPSs because it is one.

I've made this easy for you by puttin what you said right here.

Please answer me: Why is Halo revolutionary on a console.

Don't mention the term "PC" in your explanation please

[Ktw]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think you can judge Doom or Quake purely as 'Madden-esque' technological milestones.

(*) Contrary to this statement, in the time from their release to the release of Id's next title (i.e. Doom/2 -> Quake and Quake -> Quake 2) no better FPS was released, even including ones that licensed the same engine tech.

While I largely agree with your second statement I would suggest that that was only because not many developers even understood what to do with the genre, not because those titles actually moved the genre forward in any way besides the technological advances. Besides, IIRC Marathon was released before DOOM II, and I do think it's vastly superior to both DOOM titles.

Of course, Marathon being a Mac title, most PC fanboys ignored it at the time.

I just don't see how Halo has changed the landscape of the genre as much.

I've been trying to suggest that what it did was change the way the central combat mechanic works. Instead of fast paced twitch style gaming, it requires the player to think ahead and use tactics in an unprecedented manner. It achieved this through quite a few changes that might not seem revolutionary on their own but that certainly caused a revolution when put together.

At least that's why I think Halo is revolutionary.

[MK-1601]

I've been trying to suggest that what it did was change the way the central combat mechanic works. Instead of fast paced twitch style gaming, it requires the player to think ahead and use tactics in an unprecedented manner. It achieved this through quite a few changes that might not seem revolutionary on their own but that certainly caused a revolution when put together.

At least that's why I think Halo is revolutionary.

As a final, final point (hopefully), I would contend that the genre wasn't entirely dominated by twitch-style gameplay before Halo arrived, but yes, I think you've made a good case.

[dan_tm]

Could you answer my question please MK. Not the one in the original post, that went off topic after about 10 posts, but the one a couple of posts up.

Thanks

[Andy_Tanner]

Could you answer my question please MK. Not the one in the original post, that went off topic after about 10 posts, but the one a couple of posts up.

Thanks

i have asked the same question numerous times already.

[squirtle]

Out of curiosity, what FPS had the 2 weapon system, rechargable shield and open ended vehicles in them before Halo? I haven't played every single FPS so am just curious.

Anyone.

Oh, and I played Red Faction through. Quite enjoyed it as well. Was fun blowing the shit out of stuff. Seems Bungie has taken this on board with the destructable stuff in Halo 2's multiplayer. Some of the original Red Faction MP maps were great with the rocket launchers and bots a plenty.

[dan_tm]

Someone has already mentioned ones with rechargeable shields...

Doesn't UT2004 have veichles? - anyway, Operation Flashpoint.

Don't know about the 2 weapon system, but it was nothing at the time, totally radical new thing that brought some much needed thinking into the FPS genre.

[Mogget]

This is entertaining stuff. It's almost persuading me to take the plunge and actually play Halo.

D-Side = Phreak ?

[Sprite Machine]

Out of curiosity, what FPS had the 2 weapon system, rechargable shield and open ended vehicles in them before Halo? I haven't played every single FPS so am just curious.

Someone answer this man!! (I also asked this).

And please explain why these things are only relevant to consoles and not PCs!

[kerraig UK]

Another brainwashed Halo lackey.

Everything I have said is true, go ask the developers if you don't believe me.

RE damage, for example, a grunt can go down with 1-2 hits to the torso on easy/normal and around 4 hits on heroic and legendary. (using the pistol)

It's just an illusion that seems to have formed in the heads of the games ardent fans, the only reason they appear more intelligent on higher difficulty settings is that the don't get immediately mown down before they have the chance to exhibit any.

I know what bungie have said, but in practice that just isnt true. On easy and normal the elites do not throw grenades. Nor do they retreat to recharge their shields. Just two behavioral patterns that are different at a higher difficulty setting.

[Venice Cull]

Don't the grunts have those green 'exploding guns' on every level above 'easy'?

[dan_tm]

I know what bungie have said, but in practice that just isnt true. On easy and normal the elites do not throw grenades. Nor do they retreat to recharge their shields. Just two behavioral patterns that are different at a higher difficulty setting.

That I totally aree with. Why would Bungie say otherwise? - link?

[squirtle]

Someone has already mentioned ones with rechargeable shields...

Doesn't UT2004 have veichles? - anyway, Operation Flashpoint.

Don't know about the 2 weapon system, but it was nothing at the time, totally radical new thing that brought some much needed thinking into the FPS genre.

Rechargable shields... Before Halo? I know Fire Warrior and Red Faction 2 have incorporated them since, but before...? I certainly don't remember any.

Flashpoint is a good one for vehicles, though. Shame they were virtually of no use apart from getting from A-B quicker.

[kerraig UK]

I thought I'd already answered that.

Maybe it would be clearer to say, it only improves on things that are relevant to a console FPS. (Understandably.) It doesn't focus on (or address at all) PC-oriented FPS issues. It can only have impact in its own field.

(Also, I don't check this forum ever second. )

In halo, you can walk into a room carrying a pistol and needler and the room will be filled with shielded grunts. All of a sudden your weapons are next to useless. So you grenade a grunt and then use another grenade to send his plasma pistol flying towards you (guns automatically blow in your direction when a grenade is placed by em you see). You can then use the plasma pistol to destroy their shields and the shotgun to finish em off. Then on to the next room, which has 3 elites at the other end. They dodge your charged plasma shots easy. You need that needler. So you go back to the last room and pick it up where you left it. OR, a grenade went off and its been blown somewhere else. Better go find it cos one elite has follwed you down the corridor.

What other FPS on either PC or Console has this kind of emergent, real world problem solving in its gunplay?

[dan_tm]

I thought that was the point???

Admittedly Operation Flashpoint was released about a month before Halo (IIRC) but you can hardly say either was stealing the idea.

I thought the point of your question was that there isn't (at least I don't think) any games with rechargeable shields and the 2 gun limit before Halo. Which is what I was also saying.

[Sprite Machine]

I thought the point of your question was that there isn't (at least I don't think) any games with rechargeable shields and the 2 gun limit before Halo. Which is what I was also saying.

Indeed.

"Apparently", though, there were hundreds of them, all on the PC (even though "they are console innovations" only) and Halo ripped them off.

[Jumble Jumble]

Kerraig, do you mean Jackals with the shields? I've never seen Grunts with shields.