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Lies in the games industry


tiedtiger
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I was going to post this in the Fable topic, but I thought it would get more direct attention and response in its own slot. The conversation topic was Peter Molyneux, and why it is that he is singled out for lots of fanboy hate when 99% of the games industry lies as much on a regular basis.

Cyhwuhx responded:

.::: well the fact that Molyneux already did this with Black & White on a gigantic scale is easy to forget of course. Never mind that they shipped B&W in a broken state initially, making it impossible to even get pst level 3 or so (weren't there only five levels? heel did anyone complete it at all?).

I don't care about riginal IP if the game isn't up to scratch. :rolleyes: And Molyneux still has some catching up to do from last time. Wether he's involved or not.

But why oh why aren't y'all putting every other developer in the world in the doghouse regularly. They all make it up just as much.

It seems to me that there's either a whole lot of home-grown begrudgery going on, or I'm missing something. This is the same Molyneux who has headed up LOTS of classics, right? So he made one partial dud of a game. Does that make him Satan all of a sudden?

How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

Both of them have roughly the same position in their respective companies, as figurehead at the top who has a hand in what's going on. Both of them should be getting the same level of stick, surely.

As to the greater issue of games industry lies, I blame journalists. Edge magazine, for example, regularly features new and exciting games that turn out to be crocks of shit. Yet looking at the covers and the copious preview articles, I am left with three large suspicions:

1. They are either morons

2. Or easily led fanboys

3. Or on the make.

I don't think that they, or other game journos, are morons. And most of the ones that I know are not on the make as such. But they are usually fanboys of the highest order, and they directly perpetuate the cycle of lies.

Take the Unity cover. How does one piece of glowing fractal demo (that's what it sounds like) from Jeff Minter manage to make a front cover when there is NO GAME attached, which is admitted directly in the magazine's pages? I've seen plenty of students with their fractal demos over the years, including the whole demo scene.

But oh no, Jeff Minter knocks one up and suddenly it's front covernews. That's the agenda of fanboyism, plain and simple. Though well-written and nicely graphically designed, the boys from Edge are politically motivated and choose what to cover based on their own senses of misguided loyalty or belief in outright lies. This accusation is not Edge's to bear alone, of course. Check out the continuous frothing of Gamespot and IGN for some real gobgushing.

As long as journalists believe these fairy tales, the publishers will read and believe them, and do business with the people who perpetuate them best. Like PM. Or Sony.

Molyneux can hardly be blamed for playing that game to make sure he gets paid.

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.::: Ever talked to a developer who is really excited about his game? Do so. Then go write an article about it. Wether your levelling your words or not, some of his enthusiasm is seeping in, and when other press is doing the same thing, everything can be blown out of proportion.

As what happened with B&W, the press is partly to blame, but SOMEBODY promised a lot of features in the first place.

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.::: Ever talked to a developer who is really excited about his game? Do so. Then go write an article about it. Wether your levelling your words or not, some of his enthusiasm is seeping in, and when other press is doing the same thing, everything can be blown out of proportion.

As what happened with B&W, the press is partly to blame, but SOMEBODY promised a lot of features in the first place.

Only because he knew they'd be printed and his publishers would keep paying him milestone payments to finish it.

Enthusiasm or otherwise, it is a journalist's job to report the truth and not wilfully mislead the public.

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.::: Ever talked to a developer who is really excited about his game? Do so. Then go write an article about it. Wether your levelling your words or not, some of his enthusiasm is seeping in, and when other press is doing the same thing, everything can be blown out of proportion.

As what happened with B&W, the press is partly to blame, but SOMEBODY promised a lot of features in the first place.

Indeed, the blame should be shared - after all, nothing is in black and white, is it?

haw he haw he haw.

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How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

Especially since he hasn't even decided what platform Mario 128 will be on. A game so innovative, it couldn't be shown at E3 2003. Considering the massive difference with regards to technology between the N5, DS and GC, this means different gameplay stuff will be possible. So since the gameplay is so dependent on the platform, it means Miyamoto was spouting utter, utter bollocks.

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Only because he knew they'd be printed and his publishers would keep paying him milestone payments to finish it.

Enthusiasm or otherwise, it is a journalist's job to report the truth and not wilfully mislead the public.

.::: At that moment it IS the truth. A few months ago DRIV3R was looking ok*, but still had some (serious) issues. However at that moment everybody was cheerful enthusasitc and promising. Actually it could be done really well. So at that point the potential takes over. That's also a sort of unwritten rule if you havn't played any code, you remain optimistic or indecisive at least. Only if you have played something do you actually hand out criticisms and even then there's still the 'if' possibility.

Nothing mroe than shoot the messenger.

Reviews however... ah now THOSE are different.

*: Maybe it's me but df0's foto's look better than the finished product.

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How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

( :rolleyes: You're still an idiot. )

PM is hardly alone in being dragged over the coals for promising more than his company can deliver. See also Jon Romero, Derek Smart, Dave Perry, etc. The criticism (at least, sensible criticism) isn't aimed at their already established successes.

As for Minter, the news that he was working on a new, original GC title was noteworthy, regardless of how much you dislike his back catalogue. Indeed, the EDGE cover was presumably largely motivated by Minter's perceived trendiness (this was when those clowns were in charge, of course) but even I'm willing to defend magazines' privelige to put whatever they want on their covers.

TBH, games magazine journalism is beyond hope of recovery. There will always be hype, you just need to be wary of it.

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Only because he knew they'd be printed and his publishers would keep paying him milestone payments to finish it.

Enthusiasm or otherwise, it is a journalist's job to report the truth and not wilfully mislead the public.

If at the end of every interview you had to finish up with "But they might fuck it all up before the game comes out, so..." then apathy would be rampant throughout the consumer market. It'd be like reading the ingredients on a soup can for christ's sakes.

Molyneux and co have a propensity to elevate their projects above everyone elses, unlike the rest of the games industry which pretty much promises a fun experience for the most part - regardless of whether they deliver, at least you've not bought the game on the strength of some shitty new graphics engine (Messiah, Dave Perry's Shiny crap) or the introduction of the "moral dilemma" (Black and White).

How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

Because Molyneux founded Lionhead in order to make the kind of games he thought were good. Miyamoto on the other hand, founded shit all: he's an employee who still has to answer to people at the end of the day. Isn't the fact that he's got a hand in more than one game a century a telling factor, too?

If you want every article in the games industry to be about as enjoyable as Sony's E3 conference, fuck off to Switzerland.

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Molyneux oversells everything... now I applaud originality, but, if a game is buggy, frustrating and downright unfinished, then the devco deserves a good slap. I work in the software industry myself and I *know* what it's like to release code of insufficient quality... it can take years to recover. Some thorough specifications, properly planned test strategies, developer code reviews and unit tests etc etc, can make a world of a difference... but it's a cultural change, and one that "dynamic" start ups and small companies don't really have... EA don't realease buggy software... I bet their development procedures are absoloutely sorted.

Oh... and you had a point until you said Metroid Prime was shit... which, regardless of whether the game is your cup of tea or not, Metroid Prime can never be described as shit.

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How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

For a start, Metroid Prime was nothing to do with Miyamoto. Indeed, it was made in the US by Retro Studios.

Miyamoto also has lots of output which is at a consistantly decent standard, and there hasn't been a single game where you can say "this is total shit". Molyneux, however, outputs very little over a long period of time - people are judged on their latest works and he hasn't delivered. Unfortunately, this is one of the problems of owning your own small low-output studio - it also means you have lots of hype built up over time as you can't afford to work on multiple titles.

Theme Park, Populous, Syndicate and Magic Carpet are all over 10 years old now. Dungeon Keeper is about 7 years ago. The only thing released in the last 5 years was B&W which was disappointing. People in the games industries have short memories.

Whereas, in comparison, Miyamoto in the past 5 years has helped create Pikmin, Smash Bros: Melee, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Warioware Inc, Zelda: 4 Swords, Zelda: Wind Waker, Luigi's Mansion, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Zelda: Majora's Mask, Paper Mario, Smash Bros, Mario & Luigi, Mario vs. Donkey Kong etc etc

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It hasn't?

They're pussy footing around. Deliver a game on an installed system where it will sell.

Stick it on the DS to try and convince people that despite looking like the n-gage's ugly sister, it's worth a purchase, or launch with a decent launch title for the N5. Luigi's Mansion is not what one would call a decent launch title by Nintendo standards. So I wonder what they'll launch with for the DS and N5.

Sorry, i should call it revolution. But I'm sodding lazy. Also, Nintendo haven't done anything revolutionary for a while, bar the amazing Pikmin.

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Oh... and you had a point until you said Metroid Prime was shit... which, regardless of whether the game is your cup of tea or not, Metroid Prime can never be described as shit.

I take it you didn't read his "Metroid Prime is shit" thread? Made me squirm, so it did :rolleyes:

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.::: Oh dear.

You do know he was producer on Prime, not?

I didn't know that - I learn something every day. Either way, Metroid Prime is well regarded and generally delivered as promised - I wouldn't say it was negative for his CV to have it on there.

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crap.. bloody hell..

even if you don't like it, you could describe the game in many ways, but how on earth can it be described as crap.. or shit...? Rise of the Robots.. *that* was crap. Superman 64... that was crap... but there's no way that such a wonderfully executed piece of code, full of detail and quality can be described as "crap". You can describe as not to your taste, not your cup of tea, doesn't ring your bell or yank your chain... but... never...ever... shit.

anyway... this thread isn't about metroid so I'll shut up now.

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crap.. bloody hell..

even if you don't like it, you could describe the game in many ways, but how on earth can it be described as crap.. or shit...? Rise of the Robots.. *that* was crap. Superman 64... that was crap... but there's no way that such a wonderfully executed piece of code, full of detail and quality can be described as "crap". You can describe as not to your taste, not your cup of tea, doesn't ring your bell or yank your chain... but... never...ever... shit.

Because it was crap. Loading issues. And other gripes listed here.

It was impressive atmospherically and immersion wise. But the core gameplay mechanics were crap. Anyway, let's not derail this thread. Stick the replies in there if you wish. :rolleyes:

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How come none of you are turning your language on Miyamoto, for example, whose recent series of involvements could be described as varying between mildly disappointing (sunshine) to outright shit (mariokart DD and Metroid Prime(IMHO)).

FFS, Miyamoto most likely had very little to do with these games, whether you like them or not. He's a supervisor and from what I gather, he's not directly 'hands on' with more than a couple of projects these days - then again, I suspect that the situation has been the same for at least twelve years. Nintendo's development teams have hundreds of individuals over two continents, don't be so bloody reductionist in singling Miyamoto out.

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FFS, Miyamoto most likely had very little to do with these games, whether you like them or not. He's a supervisor and from what I gather, he's not directly 'hands on' with more than a couple of projects. Nintendo's development teams have hundreds of individuals over two continents, don't be so bloody reductionist in singling Miyamoto out.

Nintendo always single him out. So why shouldn't we? He's always at E3 acting as the face of Nintendo. Nintendo trade off his name, and we know it.

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FFS, Miyamoto most likely had very little to do with these games, whether you like them or not.  He's a supervisor and from what I gather, he's not directly 'hands on'

Granted, it does sound like Miyamoto was more 'Executive Producer' than 'Producer' on MP.

But still, who do you blame when a company goes down the gurgler? The CEO and board of directers. I.e. the people who are ultimately responsible, just like Miyamoto was with prime

There's only one crap thing with MP anyhow - the poorly constructed tutorial level (yes, please teach me how to use the grappeling hook, so TWELVE HOURS LATER I can actually use it in the game). But the rest of the game is solid gold.

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Granted, it does sound like Miyamoto was more 'Executive Producer' than 'Producer' on MP.

But still, who do you blame when a company goes down the gurgler? The CEO and board of directers. I.e. the people who are ultimately responsible, just like Miyamoto was with prime

That's a valid point, but let's member that there are a vast number of people involved in producing Nintendo's games. I still think that singling out Miyamoto so heavily over-simplifies matters. OTOH, as a software develope, a much smaller organisation, it is reasonable to assume that Molyneux was more 'hands on' and directly involved in Lionhead's projects that Miyamoto was with a lot of Nintendo games. I'm not trying to claim that the endless Molyneux-cussin' is justified at all; just that from what he know, Molyneux has more control over the software "his" company produces.

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