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ico, rez, and...?


Guardian
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people often cite ico and rez both as the games that prove that videogames can be art and as the games that have provided the most unique and wonderful experiences among games. i'm certainly not about to argue there; however, it seems to me that there must be more. there just has to be.

i doubt that these suggestions are quite ready to join that highest rank of which ico and rez are a part, but i wanted to at least offer something to get the thread started.

ikaruga, i think, might fit. it really is a kind of poetry. i have a large folder on my hard drive dedicated to perfect play videos of each level, as well as videos of one person playing 2-player with one hand on each. the latter are just kind of impressive, but the perfect play videos are really beautiful.

i haven't played the silent hill games, but my friend was raving the other night about their complex mythology and the experience of the psychological questioning, particularly when environments transformed into 'nightmare' mode. he described a part of silent hill 2 (i think) in which you find a hole in the floor and cannot see the bottom, but you jump in... and land in a cavernous room with just another hole. you drop again... and once more. symbolically he says it feels like you are descending to hell. then after the last drop, he says you land in a very blank labyrinth. after the grusome horror of your recent surroundings, the blankness of the labyrinth is almost more terrifying. you notice very, very old newspapers lying around. your map write itself as you move, which is unlike every other area of the game. you move through the labyrinth, and eventually you find a hall with a scattered collection of newspapers from fifty years ago or so. you turn the corner, and there is a large pile of newspapers from around thirty years ago. you turn another corner and there is an enormous amount of newspapers about a decade old, strewn everywhere. there is a door. right in front of the door is a newspaper with today's date on it. you open the door, and then you fight a boss. when my friend described all that to me, i thought it was brilliant, so i ask those of you who have played the silent hill games if they are of the same caliber as we are talking about above. are they 'art'?

i have some movies of siren, including one of the game's opening, title, and main menu, and it has a very interesting artistic quality to it. a review i read of the game at insertcredit.com also seemed very promising along those lines, except for the non-japanese versions, which are poorly translated and dubbed with bad acting. when will publishers learn to respect their customers' intelligence and let us have at least the option for sub-titles? the american changes to ico's packaging made me angry in the same way (to say nothing of the film grain cutting!).

i look forward still to playing metroid prime; yet i doubt it belongs here either.

finally, do people think that we'll tend to see more and more games like this in the future? i find the growing popularity of videogames and the increasing significance of the gaming industry to be worthy of both fear and hope as more and more knock-offs appear but certain developers, for that very reason, experiment all the more. after that, however, i am again afraid that relatively poor sales of interesting games in a booming market will hamper them in general.

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Well, if you can hear me all the way up here on my high horse, I'm of the opinion that all games are art, regardless of their quality.

I thank you.

Sorry - utter rubbish. You are telling me some rubbish game hammered together by a load of coders who don't ever play games is a work of art?

Often games are the work of a deluded company director.

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Sorry - utter rubbish. You are telling me some rubbish game hammered together by a load of coders who don't ever play games is a work of art?

Yes.

As I said quality is irrelevant. As is the fact that thecoders have or haven't played games before.

I very rarely go to a gallery and have a peek at the paintings but if I got out the watercolours and splashed a couple of lines on a bit of paper that too would be art.

The Mona Lisa, The Cheeky Song, 1984, Rez and Gigli are all art. They might not all be good art, but they're still art I'm afraid.

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Yes.

As I said quality is irrelevant.  As is the fact that thecoders have or haven't played games before.

I very rarely go to a gallery and have a peek at the paintings but if I got out the watercolours and splashed a couple of lines on a bit of paper that too would be art.

The Mona Lisa, The Cheeky Song, 1984, Rez and Gigli are all art.  They might not all be good art, but they're still art I'm afraid.

So you are basically taking the crap way out and saying "Everything is Art". :P

I just pebbled dashed the toilet bowl. I'll take a pic for you, as you'll appreciate it's artistic randomness.

----------

In addition to the this, the "Art" you quoted is very different from a guy soullessly programming a game, not actually caring or knowing what he's doing. It's his job. I think those that created Lisa/Song/84/Rez/Gigli had some degree of vested interested or cared about what they were doing.

Next you will tell me that someone who's programmed a database for a financial institution has created Art.

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1 Cls

10 Print "Hello, can you guess what number I am going to print on the screen?"

20 Print "PRESS A KEY TO FIND OUT! (but not break)"

30 Pause 0

40 Print "4"

50 Print "Did you get it right? Press a key to try again!"

60 Pause 0

70 Goto 1

MY GOD I'M AN ARTIST!

Although to be honest I can't remember if CLS is correct, and what else I might need to refresh the screen correctly

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The funny thing is that both of your examples (picture of pebble-dashed toilet bowl and the program) are indeed art. Especially the toilet one. GOt any more stuff you'd like identified as art?

As mentioned above its definition.

In my mind using a blanket "EVERYTHING IS ART" is just lazy.

"Oh man I'm so cool I can spot art a mile away. See that cobweb? That's ART man, that's ART! Yeah."

Pfft. Pretentious is what it is.

However I realise people will stick by their definition, so good luck to them in their world. Man. Cool.

P.s. Nice avatar. Real Art man. Yeah. Funky.

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Actually I'd like to apologise to Guardian for high jacking his thread.

On occasion the PES games can hit true artistic, poetic imagery. It can, when the game isnt frustrating, feel and look much like real football...and all without truly astounding graphics (and terrible commentary).

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Christ on a bike, it's the Ico/Rez "Are Games Art?!?" discussion. Again.

You could compare the likes of Rez and Ico with playing paintings - Rez being an insane Kandinsky abstractism of eye-fuckery while Ico is more a mellow mist-like landscape painting, almost tints of Escher. Fancy playing a comic book? Aha, that'll be Viewtiful Joe. Etc. etc. etc.

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In my mind using a blanket "EVERYTHING IS ART" is just lazy.

"Oh man I'm so cool I can spot art a mile away. See that cobweb? That's ART man, that's ART! Yeah."

:P

Excuse me, but who the fuck do you think you are? I was unaware that you had the right to decide what was art and what wasn't. I assumed that this was down to the artist.

It really does make me laugh when people pick out Rez in particular as a work of art, as if in order to be art, games need to look or sound a little different from the norm. Art is surely about inspiring reaction and not about being different.

It also makes me laugh how when people start talking about art it only takes five minutes before some dillion starts throwing around the word 'pretentious' which, I'm afraid, just makes you look stupid.

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Rez was hardly the first game to go down this road.

Square did a similar thing with Internal Section.

Jeff Minter also did similar things on the cited Tempest.

I mean, games are suppose to be about having fun. Whatever the style.

To make a game for art's sakes in a concept of sorts, but it must not take away the games prime directive. To have fun.

As for ICO, well, no. Defender of the Crown did it far earlier so its not new.

Its new on PS2, but games have been art for ages.

Have you seen the backgrounds on GT4 and how they interact with a three dimensional moving playarea?

Thats art. When a picture can induce Virtigo.

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For more details and images about the new Clover Studio game, Okami, click on the link below to the news item about it on Gamespot.

okami_screen001.jpg

(Ed: this looks f***ing gorgeous)

Gamespot: Okami

About the Silent Hill series, I sinceriously am of the opinion that it is art as well. It is so complex and related to mythology and it has a very distinct art direction. The only problem is that the games are not perfect in my opinion -- Ico and REZ are.

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What makes you think there ought to be a consensus on what art is anyway?

Erm, I don't. I was sugesting that the reaction could be a good or a bad reaction. I'm a little confused as to why people seem to think that art needs to be "good".

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"Good" is subjective. Does this mean that you decide what art is and what art isn't as well?

Art is a subjective term in itself.

But I've got a degree in arts, so I have more authority to decide what art is than you :D

Anyway, according to the definitions of art, anything you produce could be called art. Which is too true if you look at the crap that can be seen in any Modern Arts museum these days.

art

n.

1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature

2. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.

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:D

Excuse me, but who the fuck do you think you are?  I was unaware that you had the right to decide what was art and what wasn't.  I assumed that this was down to the artist.

It really does make me laugh when people pick out Rez in particular as a work of art, as if in order to be art, games need to look or sound a little different from the norm.  Art is surely about inspiring reaction and not about being different.

It also makes me laugh how when people start talking about art it only takes five minutes before some dillion starts throwing around the word 'pretentious' which, I'm afraid, just makes you look stupid.

You are so deep. Like...wow. I mean...that reply is ART! See that you even swore in the reply. Harsh man, harsh artistic words.

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