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Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball


D-Side
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I mean, much as I love all three games, their neverending cameos in all topics of conversation has become boring. Boring, boring, boring. For example:

'When's Donkey Konga out?'

'Dunno. But Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball are sooooooooo good.'

And so on.

Too true.

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Still, those three games have owned that reference. If a game these days is as good as those games, it will get mentioned as well.

Nothing can touch the likes of Pac-Man, Mario Bros 3, The Legend of Zelda: LttP, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Final Fantasy VI, Ico and Rez. I am forgetting many games, but those ones popped up in my mind. History has teached us that we'll only talk about this generation and the one before, so at the time of the PlayStation 4, we will honour your request.

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Rubbish. A huge number of threads simply amount to namedropping the aforementioned three games.

Strange level of aggresion surrounding this. A 'huge number' is, if I may say, overstating your case somewhat.

My point was that they're not really frames of reference, more games many of us are fond of, either because they're achingly beautiful, are really far out, or feature monkeys (easily the most compelling reason to love a game)

That's why they're still mentioned, not because they're considered the apex of their genre as you claim.

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I haven't noticed those three games getting more coverage than they deserve. Especially not Monkey Ball.

Monkey Ball seems to pop up seriously about as often as Ikaruga with posts from the few of us who are actually dedicated enough to complete them in one credit or unlock the master levels. Other than that it's just name-dropping.

For Rez and ICO I think D-side's argument is much stronger. But in their case it's not about the games being pimped as the greatest games of all time, it's almost purely for their apparent movement in a direction more akin to art than the entertainment purpose of most games. And that is something worth talking about.

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My point was that they're not really frames of reference, more games many of us are fond of, either because they're achingly beautiful, are really far out, or feature monkeys (easily the most compelling reason to love a game)

I disagree, wholeheartedly. They are used as benchmarks, sometimes for the most tenuous of reasons.

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Strange level of aggresion surrounding this. A 'huge number' is, if I may say, overstating your case somewhat.

My point was that they're not really frames of reference, more games many of us are fond of, either because they're achingly beautiful, are really far out, or feature monkeys (easily the most compelling reason to love a game)

That's why they're still mentioned, not because they're considered the apex of their genre as you claim.

All TRUFAX-able points, but on the other hand, the late Edge forum and this have perhaps given more time to those three games than is neccesary, and D-Side's also correct in that those three games tend to overshadow other brilliant games. Looking back, I made a similar point in my long-gone Pikmin tribute thread; now, there was a game as equally 'artsy' as any Ico, Rez or SMB, but forgotten or ignored for the most past. That's not to say that the said trio is responsible for that happening, but still, we should stay as neutral as possible, and if I'm being brutally honest, it's just getting dull hearing about the same set of games, ad infinitum...

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I think we also need to drop the art argument for a while.  At least until understanding and good taste catches up with design budgets.

Well from that point of view I think ICO and Rez are a step in the right direction. Oh no! I've only gone and mentioned them now.

edit: Flippancy aside, I think it's valid not to drop "the art argument". Mainly because in interviews, Mizuguchi appears (to me at least) as much an auteur as many film-makers.

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Having read this thread again, I'm at a loss as to what your point is D-Side. Do you want different, newer games to hold up as iconic design, or are you saying that we need none of these games, no reference points, and take each game as it comes?

I'm slightly :(

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For Rez and ICO I think D-side's argument is much stronger. But in their case it's not about the games being pimped as the greatest games of all time, it's almost purely for their apparent movement in a direction more akin to art than the entertainment purpose of most games. And that is something worth talking about.

that's exactly how i feel about this whole thing. yo, d. if people like you succeed in turning off the art discussion, then the most successful games on those grounds will be more ignored, corporations will churn out more crap, and on the whole we will get less wonderful games. well, i dunno if that's all true, but it really makes you sound like a jerk, so i thought i'd give it a try.

ebisumaru, when i made my thread post earlier that mentioned two of these three apparant unmentionables with terrible hubris, i wanted you to do something like bring up pikmin. i wasn't mentioning these games to show how cool i am to know what's what; i wanted to know what other games achieve such simplicity and, what is this stupid word, artiness.

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yo, d. if people like you succeed in turning off the art discussion, then the most successful games on those grounds will be more ignored, corporations will churn out more crap, and on the whole we will get less wonderful games.

And perhaps if people like you actually understood the 'games as art' argument, rather than namedropping the carefully selected few, we might have some real discussion about the worthiness of video games as an art form.

Art? That's Rez, that is.

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or are you saying that we need none of these games, no reference points, and take each game as it comes?

That's as close as I can get to it at this point.

The fact is, all 'discussion' appears to be 'comparison' and I'm not sure that's right. To be honest, I'm not sure we're doing many games justice.

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And perhaps if people like you actually understood the 'games as art' argument, rather than namedropping the carefully selected few, we might have some real discussion about the worthiness of video games as an art form.

Art? That's Rez, that is.

i rather mind that you assume i don't understand something just because i haven't talked about it at all.

my "namedropping" was to suit my own purposes. i wanted to find more games that are considered masterpieces. i had only gotten rez and ico very recently, and they are still new in my collection. the experiences are still fresh in my mind. i had never before played anything that did to me what they did, and i've actually wept during games like earthbound and chrono trigger and other obvious (relative) nonsense. so i wanted more, and i did something that i thought might lead me to more--i joined a videogames forum and started a thread asking for more. omfg.

i have not had any need to talk about videogames as an artistic medium with you in my entire week of being registered at this forum. you're a very presumptious character, d-plan. not cool.

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The fact is, all 'discussion' appears to be 'comparison' and I'm not sure that's right. To be honest, I'm not sure we're doing many games justice.

now that is different; that is respectable and even agreeable. however, the same problems arise in many other places--music comes to mind. some people say that talking about music is like dancing about painting, or something like that. comparison is the easiest tool through which to make sense of a new piece. despite that, i tend to agree with you. i wish i could take each new game as if i had never played games before, totally fresh. i wish i weren't a lazy writer and could say something other than "surrealistic sonic tapestry" when i describe music. but these are, mostly, vain wishes. that or i am not yet at a point in my young, developing wisdom where i can consistently act in these ways.

besides, comparison is also a useful tool for finding the best games when you don't have time to sift through them all yourself. see my defensive post directly above.

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I think you have no point. Your new girlfriend needs to compete with your old girlfriend. Your new car will be compared with your old car. The new Mario, Zelda or Gran Turismo will compete with its own predecessors.

So, why not compare todays games with those of the past? Until now, Tetris and Pac-Man are the best puzzle games I ever played. Untill I play something better, those games will be my reference point. I do not see Ico as a work of art, for me, it is one of the best adventure games ever. The art direction is great, but the interaction between Ico and Yorda unrivaled.

I always take games as they come. I would give Ico the highest rating possible, which I would also give to Super Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time. However, Ico was unique in every aspect, Super Mario 64 was not. So there you have your answer.

The underlying discussion here is how to rate a game, and what games are art? I would say all games are art. Only 99% of all games are the crappy art your neighbour makes on sunday. Of those 99%, 80% is only sold because of marketing. Look at Driv3r, look at Enter The Matrix, technical failures but marketing successes. The games that are true art, like Ico and Rez are mostly appreciated by die-hard gamers, which account for 3% of all gamers according to market research. I would say Ico and Rez are like a Picasso, Da Vinci or Van Gogh. The only thing is that you must like that particular art direction.

For the rating, I do not think you can rate videogames. My view is that playing videogames is all about the experience. The immersion, the storyline, the music -- a combination of all those factors. Good examples are Final Fantasy, Halo and Goldeneye. However, experience is a personal aspect. So how would I rate game? According to my personal opinion, or should I take the perspective of the people who play it? I am a die-hard gamer, so therefore only 3% of the readers would likely have the same opinion as me, while the other 97% would not. So I must adjust my rating to my personal opinion, as well as to the public. The conclusion?

I just try to write good articles and explain what I liked and disliked. I hope my readers can draw their own conclusions out of that.

That's what I think about this subject. Next.

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I disagree, wholeheartedly. They are used as benchmarks, sometimes for the most tenuous of reasons.

Not in terms of gameplay they're not. None of them set any benchmark, despite being lovely games they're all highly derivative. They're remembered for their aesthetics more than anything else.

That they're remembered is a testament to how ugly and soulless (in aesthetic terms) most games are.

I'm a bit lost by your argument generally - a tad incoherent.

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That's as close as I can get to it at this point.

The fact is, all 'discussion' appears to be 'comparison' and I'm not sure that's right. To be honest, I'm not sure we're doing many games justice.

I concur. <_<

(Besides, Rez is just like Space Harrier, but not as good. If only it was as arty as Ico, eh?)

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Not in terms of gameplay they're not. None of them set any benchmark, despite being lovely games they're all highly derivative. They're remembered for their aesthetics more than anything else.

Bollocks.

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You really aren't grasping this, are you?

I think it is the other way around. You seem to be the only person here who has problems with this matter. Ico, Vib Ribbon and Rez ARE indeed astethic masterpieces that are unrivaled by any other game from an artistic perspective. As long as this generation is here, those games will be remembered and referred to. A new generation will bring new reference points -- so why is this such a problem?

I do not compare everything to those games. But once the artistic or uniqueness or innovation discussion comes up, those are my top 3 games this generation. End of story.

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Ico, Vib Ribbon and Rez ARE indeed astethic masterpieces that are unrivaled by any other game from an artistic perspective. As long as this generation is here, those games will be remembered and referred to. A new generation will bring new reference points -- so why is this such a problem?

I think he means it's a problem that these same names get 'dropped' automatically without even thinking about why they are relevant, and as a result the actual discussion about 'art' is subdued.

Not that everybody does this, but still, I think the point has some validity.

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Possibly because you haven't talked about art at all.

again, i've made no claims to.

i seem to be confused. do i owe you something here? you know, why don't you get me started. you seem to have a pretty good idea of what i should be talking about.

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I think he means it's a problem that these same names get 'dropped' automatically without even thinking about why they are relevant, and as a result the actual discussion about 'art' is subdued.

Not that everybody does this, but still, I think the point has some validity.

i agree with this. but he is still an utter cock. and it's not helping.

the problem is, i think he's got some serious arrogant spite thing going on. i think that if i were to type three pages on what makes ico a successful experiential work of art he would just go wanking in some other corner.

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