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Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball


D-Side
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That's as close as I can get to it at this point.

The fact is, all 'discussion' appears to be 'comparison' and I'm not sure that's right. To be honest, I'm not sure we're doing many games justice.

Yeah, I see what you're getting at.

"It's no Halo," is another phrase that has become annoying. What does it mean?

I think I posted something similar some time back about games that are not stellar for everyone, that get rubbished because they're no Halo, GT3/PGR2 (pick game judged to be best in its genre), instead of just taking the game as it is and playing it for what it is. If you see what I mean.

As for the games as Art debate. I think it's a pointless one, personally.

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And so..... another thread ends in cheap shots and arrogance

you think i'm being cheap? i have felt like i'm on the defensive since i joined this forum. d-side is the worst offender, the type of poster who doesn't even respond to what you have to say.

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I think I posted something similar some time back about games that are not stellar for everyone, that get rubbished because they're no Halo, GT3/PGR2 (pick game judged to be best in its genre), instead of just taking the game as it is and playing it for what it is. If you see what I mean.

It's like Horse mode in THPS. If you don't do better than the previous best, you might as well just go straight to smashing your teeth out on the concrete, regardless of how impressive what you actually got up to was. :)

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[quote name='Guardian' date='Jul 16 2004, 11:59 AM'] you think i'm being cheap? i have felt like i'm on the defensive since i joined this forum. d-side is the worst offender, the type of poster who doesn't even respond to what you have to say. [/quote]
Remember the cardinal rule of videogaming - If you're not having any fun then just quit. There are other forums out there you may enjoy more.

Ciao.

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Bollocks.

A well considered response.

Rez is Space Harrier with trippy wallpaper. Panzer Dragoon Orta is a technically a more accomplished game but generally as a genre it all feels very dated.

Ico is an amalgam of a number of much older games. The original PoP and Tomb Raider leap to mind. The emphasis on resuing Yorda is its only real distinguishing feature as a game.

SMB, obviously Marble Madness got there a decade earlier and it doesn't really define any genre. It's a clever, well designed parlour game.

In terms of gameplay none can sensibly be described as paradigms.

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Ico is an amalgam of a number of much older games. The original PoP and Tomb Raider leap to mind. The emphasis on resuing Yorda is its only real distinguishing feature as a game.

It's a rather defining feature though, isn't it? You have to not only negotiate the castle yourself, but pave the way for another to get through, while protecting them from harm at the same time. I'm not saying something similar hasn't been done before (say, Sleepwalker on the old computers), but it certainly isn't a gimmick they threw in at the last minute.

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Ico is an amalgam of a number of much older games. The original PoP and Tomb Raider leap to mind. The emphasis on resuing Yorda is its only real distinguishing feature as a game.

In terms of gameplay you're quite right, but ICO's art direction is in a league of its own. I genuinely believe that.

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In terms of gameplay you're quite right, but ICO's art direction is in a league of its own. I genuinely believe that.

Oh god yes. Absolutely sublime.

Thats rather my point, Ico is remembered for it's aesthetics - not its gameplay. Until something more sumptuous comes along it will be a point of comparison in critical discussion. Comparison is a fundamental aspect of critique.

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Oh god yes. Absolutely sublime.

Thats rather my point, Ico is remembered for it's aesthetics - not its gameplay. Until something more sumptuous comes along it will be a point of comparison in critical discussion. Comparison is a fundamental aspect of critique.

Bollocks. I remember Ico for both. I like its gameplay even more than its aesthetics -- the aestethics however allow the gameplay to shine for the full 100%. It could have gotten away with any other type of visuals. Yet, they choose the right to create that feeling of immersion, the feeling of depth and the mytical theme.

You rate the interaction between Ico and Yorda as a minor feature, I see it as one of the few steps forward in videogaming in this, the 128-bit, generation, and it is a shame that no other game has used it in the same way. Furthermore, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time tried to achieve the same -- it miserably failed.

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Why?

Because they were the equillibrium of their own unique factors. Ico this generation was for me what Tomb Raider was in the 32-bit generation -- totally amazing. Instead of only doing what Tomb Raider did -- it added unique character interaction to the gameplay and the most beautiful aesthetics I have seen untill now.

Rez -- indeed isn't the greatest game gameplay wise. I 100% agree that Panzer Dragoon and Space Harrier are better shooters. However, again, in Rez the combination of all the factors is what the game makes great. The great music, the way the music slowly comes together, impressive end bosses, the abstract visuals, while still being able to see that you are in a chinese temple or a deserted sea. Finally, the continously vibe of the beat trough the Dual Shock 2 controller -- unique experience. It definately is much more exciting than Panzer Dragoon or Space Harriers.

Finally, Vib Ribbon, I just like the simplicity. Your quote is right, but I do not see Vib Ribbion as an overal masterpiece -- but more as an artistic.

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i agree with this.  but he is still an utter cock.  and it's not helping.

the problem is, i think he's got some serious arrogant spite thing going on.  i think that if i were to type three pages on what makes ico a successful experiential work of art he would just go wanking in some other corner.

Fabulous response.

Now, I'm not entirely sure who invaded who's thread with

a) Petulant 'grammar and spelling' responses.

b) Ultra defensive 'why are you talking about me' posts.

c) A load of old cock.

...but I've got a hunch it was you.

This thread was not directed at you. It was directed at the overuse of the aforementioned games as examples of perfection, the very best a gamer can get. As Mr Junkie rightly notes:

In terms of gameplay none can sensibly be described as paradigms.

...but they are. Continually, and without thought. The real discussion is in the 'hows' and 'whys', but no-one ever seems to tackle those thorny points. The same goes for 'art' really. It seems spurious to offer examples of 'games as art' when we don't even really know what means. Hell, the art world has trouble defining itself, with new directions and movements being devised every day. How is it that we can summate 'art' with just three titles?

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D-Side has a point: those three games in particular are overused badly as examples of particular gaming archetypes. Whatever happened to comparing games to Lemmings or Cannon Fodder or Tetris or Puzzle Bobble or Tempest 2k?

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Another remark. 99% of the games that we, die-hard gamers of members of the press, mark as "true masterpieces" are commercial failures. Look at Ico, Rez, Shenmue, Vib Ribbon, Silent Hill and Suikoden. While true failures as Driv3r and Enter The Matrix sold very well.

Secondly, a "true masterpiece" for me must have more then either a) unique visuals B) unique gameplay c) unique controls or d) unique music. It must evolve on multiple aspects. Ico for me, took character interaction to a new level, it also had some of the best environments and puzzles -- the environment was always part of a puzzle. Then, the use of sound and music was sublime. Most of the time there was no sound while only the wind and the birds could be heard. This adds greatly to the experience. Then finally, which is mentioned many times before, the artistic style with the pureness and the unique function of light makes it trully outstanding.

Ico, for me, was not a cumulation of what has been done in other games.

I hope my point is clear.

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Because they were the equillibrium of their own unique factors.

Perhaps I'm being stupid, but that really doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Ico this generation was for me what Tomb Raider was in the 32-bit generation -- totally amazing. Instead of only doing what Tomb Raider did -- it added unique character interaction to the gameplay and the most beautiful aesthetics I have seen untill now.

Indeed, Ico is a beautiful game. No-one could dispute that. Does that alone make it art?

(Bear in mind that I'm honing in on the important stuff in this here thread, rather than the periphery fluff. I'm not sure I see the link between TR and Ico, to be honest. Scale perhaps, but that's it.)

The great music, the way the music slowly comes together, impressive end bosses, the abstract visuals, while still being able to see that you are in a chinese temple or a deserted sea.

Unintentionally, you raise an interesting point. That art provokes different reactions, and alludes different images to different people. I've never really made the connection between Rez (Area 3, isn't it?) and a Chinese temple. I mean, I've noticed similarities in the architecture and such, but I've not really thought about it. Strange.

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...but they are. Continually, and without thought. The real discussion is in the 'hows' and 'whys', but no-one ever seems to tackle those thorny points. The same goes for 'art' really. It seems spurious to offer examples of 'games as art' when we don't even really know what means. Hell, the art world has trouble defining itself, with new directions and movements being devised every day. How is it that we can summate 'art' with just three titles?

Because of one person does not consider the gameplay of Ico unique and innovative, you speak for all of us and say we are wrong? For me, Ico has been one of the most compelling and unique game experiences of all time. Much of that was due to the gameplay. Like I explained, not only gameplay makes a masterpiece. The sames goes for art, I would not say Jet Set Radio is a masterpiece. But from an artistic viewpoint, it definately was a unique and innovative experience.

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Thats rather my point, Ico is remembered for it's aesthetics - not its gameplay. Until something more sumptuous comes along it will be a point of comparison in critical discussion. Comparison is a fundamental aspect of critique.

If it hadn't already been assumed, I disagree with this. Ico's visuals are certainly ingrained in the minds of many, but why did we keep playing it? Perhaps because it was so new, so fresh and yet so familiar all at once? It's old school swing in new school pants.

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Unintentionally, you raise an interesting point. That art provokes different reactions, and alludes different images to different people. I've never really made the connection between Rez (Area 3, isn't it?) and a Chinese temple. I mean, I've noticed similarities in the architecture and such, but I've not really thought about it. Strange.

Finally we are getting to a discussion on a good level. How to define art?

Secondly, all areas of Rez are realistic environments which are shown abstract. The first area is a village or city with houses and building and pedestrian roads and road signs that point out directions. It is just how you look at it. Play the game again I would say.

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Mostly, those games aren't used as a lazy shorthand on here for "Art" but as a lazy shorthand for "games this forum likes that are generally ignored by mainstream gamers". Sure, one of the reasons "we" like Ico and Rez is their art design, but I don't think it goes much beyond that. There aren't that many wanky "games as art" posts on here.

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Secondly, all areas of Rez are realistic environments which are shown abstract...

Yes, I realise this. I'm just saying that because of individual perception, Rez can be seen as many things. For me, the translated environments are merely the backdrop.

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Surely art's subjective? One man's ingenuity's another man's frilly trim?

Quite. But we never even attempt to discuss what 'art' means to us, preferring to opt for the readily available forum consensus.

I'm not sure what art is, and therefore, I'm not sure what qualifies and what doesn't.

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Another remark. 99% of the games that we, die-hard gamers of members of the press, mark as "true masterpieces" are commercial failures. Look at Ico, Rez, Shenmue, Vib Ribbon, Silent Hill and Suikoden. While true failures as Driv3r and Enter The Matrix sold very well.

Not being pedantic, but surely the Silent Hill games were big hits? They're certainly one of the franchises that casual gamers go on about to me as being amazing.

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Quite.  But we never even attempt to discuss what 'art' means to us, preferring to opt for the readily available forum consensus.

I'm not sure what art is, and therefore, I'm not sure what qualifies and what doesn't.

I'm not sure myself, but my working theory is that art is showing (or better, directly pumping into the brain) the viewer/player/listener/whatever an aspect of your own thought or feeling... so Monkey Ball's infuriating geometric subtleties, Ico's nostalgia and loneliness, Rez is zoning out, GTA3 is playing with toy cars in a Lego city, a Houson painting carries a sense of fleshiness and motion, even something as simple as Tetris lets the player in on this clever little organisational pattern which must've popped into the creator's mind as he sat in front of that alphanumeric screen.

In fact, we need a good "what's art?" debate.

EDIT- I'd better clarify that. If you're making people feel something like you felt it, see something the way you saw it, think about something puzzling which suddenly flashed into your thoughts unexpectedly and you've hurried to capture on paper, then you're making art.

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