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Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball


D-Side
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Based purely on that premise?

That's a wafer thin argument, if ever I saw one.

Indeed a lame argument -- that of the dictionary. Fortunately, I agree for 100% that art does not need to be innovative. You seem to be so bold of Super Mario 64, but you contradict yourself in so many ways? Why? Because Super Mario 64 was mainly the Super Mario serie evolving into 3D. Super Mario Bros 3 is as good, if not better.

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But I don't see how being smaller and less linear makes SM64 a less worthy candidate for 'art' status.

i'm not saying it is a less worthy candidate for "art" status. i am, however, saying that in my personal experience it is less great art.

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i agree with this. but he is still an utter cock. and it's not helping.

the problem is, i think he's got some serious arrogant spite thing going on. i think that if i were to type three pages on what makes ico a successful experiential work of art he would just go wanking in some other corner.

Same here.

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Based purely on that premise?

That's a wafer thin argument, if ever I saw one.

But untill now, you have not brought in a single argument in which you can say that Ico and Rez are not art -- or at least why they should not be mentioned.

It would be nice if more people would shed their opinion.

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Forgetting the validity of games as art for a moment, why has the forum chosen Ico over SM64. That's the issue I'm trying to tackle.

Because Ico is a much more believable character than a fat plumber in a boiler suit who can triple jump and fly witht he use of feathers will ever be. I would also hazard a guess that the small boy rescuing the older girl is something of a freudian (or is it jungian) fantasy in all of us on some level.

But then, what do I know?

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Because Ico is a much more believable character than a fat plumber in a boiler suit who can triple jump and fly witht he use of feathers will ever be. I would also hazard a guess that the small boy rescuing the older girl is something of a freudian (or is it jungian) fantasy in all of us on some level.

But then, what do I know?

Exactly. The relationship between the character and the player is of great importance.

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You seem to be so bold of Super Mario 64, but you contradict yourself in so many ways? Why? Because Super Mario 64 was mainly the Super Mario serie evolving into 3D. Super Mario Bros 3 is as good, if not better.

Perhaps. But doesn't the fact that SM64 bears so little resemblance to previous Mario games nullify your argument entirely?

But untill now, you have not brought in a single argument in which you can say that Ico and Rez are not art -- or at least why they should not be mentioned.

ATTENTION IDIOTS. THIS IS MUSING. I AM NOT DRAWING ANY CONCLUSIONS HERE, MERELY PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE.

Ico's not art. It's pretty.

Rez isn't art. It's nostalgic.

How's about that?

Whether these games are art is not the issue, it's the general acceptance that they are art that concerns me. And while Guardian has at least explained why Ico feels like a work of art to him, there is no convincing cover-all argument. Art is an individual experience. We can't talk in certainties.

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I thought you were taking the piss?

Oh well.

I was just answering your question as why people get attached more to Ico than Mario. Little kid exploring a castle, rescuing a fairy princess from the evil witch/stepmother/whatever. It's just classic brother's grimm style story telling, but in a game and taken down to the level of a fairy tale with no distractions. I can't see why you're having such a hard time seeing this.

And also, you say Ico and Rez are not art. Then say it's all subjective. Isn't that the definition of any art. Sheep in formeldahyde? The Statue of David? Woman sleeping? A pile of bricks? An empty room with a light? Art or not? It's all subjective.

Ah, who cares, Ico was good fun, as was Rez.

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No. And yes.

Let's face it, Mario isn't considered 'art' because it's a cartoon.

Neither is Zelda, and that's a crying fucking shame. Someone mentioned physicality of worlds earlier on. I put forward Ocarina of Time as the most solid world ever. Just astounding.

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Forgetting the validity of games as art for a moment, why has the forum chosen Ico over SM64. That's the issue I'm trying to tackle.

As a touchstone, rather than as Art? Did we vote? Maybe because SM64 sold millions and is pretty much universally regarded as the pinnacle of that type of game, whereas Rez and Ico sold next to nothing, so feel like they belong to us. SM64 belongs to the world.

If we're judging Art as what might get into a gallery (other than in a videogame exhibition), I think Rez would have a fair shot. I don't think it's particularly good art, but its as least as good as a lot of other stuff I've seen in galleries, particularly art that aspires to do something with technology or interactivity.

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Whether these games are art is not the issue, it's the general acceptance that they are art that concerns me.

that completely makes no sense.

----------------

frankly, i have no sympathy for people (and i've seen it before, not just here) who refuse to even consider the possibility that games can be art simply because their first purpose was to entertain. the first purpose of visual art (painting, drawing, etc.) was to communicate. films have always been about entertainment. what is the problem? why can't something be both? the fact is that anything organized by a conscious living being can be called art. if you consider architecture art, you must consider videogames art. architecture seems a good example to me because people move through buildings, see them from every conceivable angle, and interact with them physically. videogames are all art. if you accept that videogames are art, which you should, then you need to consider it as an artistic medium in relation to what other mediums have to offer. videogames are possibly the first interactive art medium and therefore allow for the most variable experience in the art's perceiver. for this reason, neither artistic direction (aesthetics) nor subject matter (content) are the most important areas of the medium. rather, gameplay is probably the primary element (the true core) of a videogame.* there are obvious problems that result from this and make it difficult to judge any particular piece. nonetheless, after many, many experiences have been had by multiple people, it becomes possible to discuss the relationships between the game's design and the player's experience. this discussion is called "game design theory." its very existence proves that games are art, because humans are discussing the best ways to refine their organizations, their creations.

*when art direction, subject matter, and other factors all complement gameplay to the utmost, these disparate elements appear to fuse together in a glorious synergy birthing a unity of a game. to me,

i'd like to move on to questions like: is ico so successful in this criterion for elemental synergy because of the simplicity and minimalism of its every facet?

btw, in case you didn't extrapolate: super mario 64 is an example of an entertaining but mediocre and unfulfilling work of art. ico is an example of a masterpiece.

do i win, daddy?

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i'd like to add to a working definition of art as something organized by conscious beings a condition that allows for found art.. it would make the finder the artist, because he is the one who initially sees it as art. in some way, his mind is perceiving organization--is this the same as organizing?

this isn't relevant to videogames, but i wanted to tidy up the idea of art.

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Maybe because SM64 sold millions and is pretty much universally regarded as the pinnacle of that type of game, whereas Rez and Ico sold next to nothing, so feel like they belong to us. SM64 belongs to the world.

do you really feel this way? do you really believe that this financial statistic has holds much emotional sway over us?

do you think that i prefer to listen to scott walker's obscure and heavily downcast 1995 album tilt than to jason mraz's top 40 songwriting that plays off of anxieties in today's america because the country owns mraz or because it has achieved something called "top 40" status?

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do i win, daddy?

No, because you've fundamentally missed the point of what I'm saying. Again.

One last time.

'Art' is an utterly uncertain classification, forever changing in its' boundaries and form.

You keep speaking in certainties, stating that specific games definitely, beyond any shadow of a motherfucking doubt befit the label.

So no, you don't win. No-one wins.

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do you really feel this way? do you really believe that this financial statistic has holds much emotional sway over us?

do you think that i prefer to listen to scott walker's obscure and heavily downcast 1995 album tilt than to jason mraz's top 40 songwriting that plays off of anxieties in today's america because the country owns mraz or because it has achieved something called "top 40" status?

You misunderstand my point. D-Side was wondering why the above named games are referenced so often by the forum, when there are so many other games we love as much, and are equally as interesting. I love SM64 much more than Ico and Rez and Super Monkey Ball. Put together. But I do think those games are a good representation of the games the forum tends to evangelise, and part of the reason for that is that they are critically feted, but are less well known by people who don't share the same values as us. Add Ikaruga, Frequency and Gitarooman to the list and you have "forum games" in a nutshell.

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'Art' is an utterly uncertain classification, forever changing in its' boundaries and form.

no it isn't. anything organized by conscious beings is an art. that's why we say things like "the art of conversation." even your posts are art. they're just lousy art.

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You misunderstand my point. D-Side was wondering why the above named games are referenced so often by the forum, when there are so many other games we love as much, and are equally as interesting. I love SM64 much more than Ico and Rez and Super Monkey Ball. Put together. But I do think those games are a good representation of the games the forum tends to evangelise, and part of the reason for that is that they are critically feted, but are less well known by people who don't share the same values as us. Add Ikaruga, Frequency and Gitarooman to the list and you have "forum games" in a nutshell.

isn't that a good thing though?

(mind, I am enjoying 007: Nightfire)

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'Art' is an utterly uncertain classification, forever changing in its' boundaries and form.

100% true but you are forgetting one thing. The boundries of art might be ever evolving. What was art in the history is art today. Van Gogh, Picasso, Mondriaan, Da Vinci, Dali, The Sagrada Familia, Rembrandt. They were art and still are. The only thing that can change is the way people perceive it. After a while, when generations pass, it is realistic that more people will dislike that particular form of art.

About the videogames are art discussion. They are art. That is just the end of the dicussion. They are created by human beings, they have a clear and distinct visual appearence and the fact that they are interactive is irrelevant.

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