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Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball


D-Side
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Let's try again, in large bold letters:

ICO, REZ AND SMB ARE NOT THE BE AND END ALL OF 'ART' IN THE GAMES SENSE. THE LIST IS ENDLESS IN FACT, IF YOU TAKE THE LINE THAT ARTISTRY CAN BE FOUND IN ALL THINGS. I'D LIKE TO THINK THIS IS THE LINE THAT WE ALL CAN TAKE, THAT WE ALL HAVE AN OPEN MIND AND WIDE OPEN EYES. HOWEVER, SOME PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED TO PROFESS THIS IDEAL WHILST AT THE SAME TIME CLAIMING THAT CERTAIN TITLES ARE MORE ARTISTIC THAN OTHERS, DESPITE THE GROSS HYPOCRISY OF THIS SENTIMENT. I FAIL TO SEE HOW WE CAN TALK IN SUCH SPECIFIC TERMS WHEN THE BOUNDARIES ARE INDEFINABLE. I FAIL TO SEE HOW ONE CAN COMPARE AND 'PLAY OFF' (FOR WANT OF A BETTER PHRASE) THE ARTISTRY OF TWO SEPERATE TITLES, GIVEN THAT ART IS ESSENTIALLY ABOUT INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTION, RATHER THAN FACTUAL CERTAINTIES. I FAIL TO SEE HOW PEOPLE CAN ADVOCATE BROAD VIEWS ON THE ONE HAND, YET UTILISE THE SAME NARROW LIST OF EXAMPLES (THE SAME SHORT LIST THEY'VE BEEN USING FOR ROUGHLY THREE YEARS NOW) WHEN IT COMES TO DISCUSSING GAMES AS ART.

Now, is any of that penetrating, or do I have to go a font size up? I'm not sure the forum can take it, Captain.

But is it art?

:)

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What makes you think that "Art" is a static element? Never changing and thus to be first considered "Art" an artificat must fit a set criteria and not actually alter the rules and guidelines set down in the first place by it's mere existence?

This is how the theory of Art within Philosophy has developed over the course of history from Plato and Art as Imitation to Tolstoy, Collingwood and Expression then beyond to Wittgenstein.

This is an interesting discussion as it has many elements that are similar to emergence of the theory of Significant Form proposed by Clive Bell as a response to new developments in the visual arts in the early twentieth century.

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I'm comfortable with the idea that anything can be art, it's all subjective, and so on. But I'm going to go with: could you get away with displaying it in a gallery, at least as far as bothering to identify a particular game "art". Otherwise the term is too broad as to be meaningless. Let's say we accept all games, drawings, films, TV programs, commercials, web pages and gardens as art, then perhaps its best to think which ones work best as art. And I think Rez has a good shot at that.

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well try reading my posts and you might find the explantation you're looking for.

I've read them, I still don't get it. Aside from your claim that games aren't art because you play them to win (as opposed to books, which you read to get to the end of, and movies, which you watch to get to the end of, when all's said and done), I've not seen anything particularly convincing.

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I've read them, I still don't get it. Aside from your claim that games aren't art because you play them to win (as opposed to books, which you read to get to the end of, and movies, which you watch to get to the end of, when all's said and done), I've not seen anything particularly convincing.

fair enough, i've still not read anything that convinces me games are art. what people here are doing is seperating the various components of games which make them aesthetically what they are and ignoring the gameplay aspects altogether.

edit. i also don't get people saying things like, Ico is art but Castlevania isn't. i mean, why?

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fair enough, i've still not read anything that convinces me games are art. what people here are doing is seperating the various components of games which make them aesthetically what they are and ignoring the gameplay aspects altogether.

Well, not really, read the stuff about Ico. It's complicated but I found it stimulating. I mean, things like Rez- it's little more than a Media Player visualisation and MTV Music Generator 2's Jam mode strapped onto Panzer Dragoon when you break it down, but the two work together to create something which is fantastically hypnotic.

Games may not fit your definition of art, of course, which seems to require them to be inclusive (and very few games are).

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I'm perfectly calm. I just don't want anyone to misunderstand my point.

that is not fair that

Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball (and SM64 to an extent later in the thread) are considered art, whilst other games are ignored?

:P

excuse me but:

:P

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that is not fair that

Ico, Rez and Super Monkey Ball (and SM64 to an extent later in the thread) are considered art, whilst other games are ignored?

:)

excuse me but:

;)

Not that it's 'not fair', just that it's 'fucking ignorant and tedious and short sighted.'

Sorry, Rez as an example is cliche, I know, but I just went with the most convenient example.

I know. Only teasing.

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Not that it's 'not fair', just that it's 'fucking ignorant and tedious and short sighted.'

Maybe he just doesn't think such a situation exists?

Although to read posts on games-as-art in this forum you would think so. :)

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"Fair enough, I've still not read anything that convinces me games are art. what people here are doing is seperating the various components of games which make them aesthetically what they are and ignoring the gameplay aspects altogether."

The problem of the nature of art is like the nature of games, at least in these respects: If we actually look and see what it is we call "Art", we will also find no common properties, only strands of similarities. Knowing what is art is not apprehending some manifest or latent essence but being able to recognize, describe, and explain those things we call "Art" in virtue of these similarities.

In elucidating them, certain (paradigm) cases can be given, about which there is no question as to their being correctly described as "Art" or "Game", but no exhaustive set of cases can be given. I can list some cases and some conditions under which I can apply correctly the concept of art but I cannot list all of them, for the all important reason that unforseeable or novel conditions are always forthcoming or envisagable.

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fair enough, i've still not read anything that convinces me games are art. what people here are doing is seperating the various components of games which make them aesthetically what they are and ignoring the gameplay aspects altogether.

edit. i also don't get people saying things like, Ico is art but Castlevania isn't. i mean, why?

have you even read a single one of my posts?!

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