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Guardian
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have either of you kotor dislikers played any other bioware games? any of the pc "rpg"s? i think you can start to get an idea of what they strive for in a game... and they achieve it consistently. and it's very, very lousy.

HEY WEINER. why don't you reply to me in a more detailed manner? and don't just say "you're wrong, so wrong" five hundred times and pretend it's an improvement.

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..or KOTOR-related empathy. What other games did they make that you ain't keen on?

neverwinter nights. its main campaign bothered me for many of the same reasons that kotor did, but at least its d&d system was better. still not really fun in any way.

i might try jade empire. but i expect it will be the final cut on their wrist.

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have either of you kotor dislikers played any other bioware games? any of the pc "rpg"s? i think you can start to get an idea of what they strive for in a game... and they achieve it consistently. and it's very, very lousy.

I found the Baldur's Gate games to be marvellous and expansive, with an interesting plotline and involving side quests, for me Bioware strive for excellence in RPGs and they achieve it rather often ( not constantly however, much though I'd love to turn your comment totally back on itself ). They were one of the first to start implimenting new devices like romances between the main character and NPCs, bringing a new depth to the genre which can't be underestimated.

I did enjoy KOTR, although it would have benefitted from a couple more months Dev time to iron out the bugs and generally shonky framerate.

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Tecmo. They're like the evil version of Namco. They clearly have some residual amount of talent but are so (rightly) wary of being constantly upstaged by Namco, Sega, Capcom, Konami and every other good developer that they have to bury their games in cheesy adolescent gunk.

Bioware are just boring and have perenially mistaken quantity for quality, but I don't hate them. I can't think of a more pointless waste of the Star Wars license than KOTOR, although I'm sure LucasArts can.

Core have never made a decent game.

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Nope. Kotor is my one and only Bioware title. Not impressed. But I'm reluctant to write off a game that so many people claim to like.

I don't actually like Halo but I can see why others do. Kotor just puzzles me.

I guess what goes someway into explaining it's appeal, is the lush locations, the teamwork, and the character of the game. For example, how the characters are genuinely talking and interacting with you. HK-47 was absolutely genius, and it actually felt like you were controlling the game.

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Nope. Kotor is my one and only Bioware title.  Not impressed.  But I'm reluctant to write off a game that so many people claim to like.

I don't actually like Halo but I can see why others do.  Kotor just puzzles me.

I'm similar, in that I like Halo, though don't have the kind of passion for it that many seem to. But KOTOR is just a mystery - not only do *I* not enjoy it, I don't see what it is that others enjoy in it.

As you said, it's only Star Wars in name. The theme is entirely wrong. So it doesn't even have that going for it.

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I found the Baldur's Gate games to be marvellous and expansive, with an interesting plotline and involving side quests, for me Bioware strive for excellence in RPGs and they achieve it rather often ( not constantly however, much though I'd love to turn your comment totally back on itself ).  They were one of the first to start implimenting new devices like romances between the main character and NPCs, bringing a new depth to the genre which can't be underestimated.

I did enjoy KOTR, although it would have benefitted from a couple more months Dev time to iron out the bugs and generally shonky framerate.

is the baldur's gate series very much like nwn or kotor? i don't think the intra-party interactions are well-implemented at all. it really is a great thing to have going on, but it feels so terribly contrived and separate from the main gameplay whenever it "happens". and again, worst of all, it just. doesn't. matter. when will i get to play a role-playing game that's really a role-playing game?

bioware games almost play themselves. they might as well be movies. once in awhile i can press a button on my remote to tell my character that his level is too low and he should take a break from saving the galaxy and go fight more rats.

when you remark upon immersion and epic world and things like that, at least when it comes to the bioware games i've played, it really seems like there's a quantity thing fooling people, like mk said. for example, the detailed graphics that stretch into the distance on the secret caribbean planet near the end of kotor can in no way trick me into not noticing the confining borders of my mini map, and those confines themselves somehow never stop the game from sending me back and forth on fetch quests that are just excuses to do nothing that has to do with the star forge.

i think, since their environments can seem neither to win nor lose no matter which way i look at them, that bioware's real problem (and i keep using this word, but it seems the right one) is that everything is so obviously contrived. the so-called characters, mission set-ups, and other set pieces are devoid of charm in the context of a game. they may be alright on their own at times (i have to admit that i laughed a lot at hk-47) but for the most part the effect that they are programmed to have on the gameplay--the same effect that they will have every time you play the game--is obvious and just not fun (because it's obvious? not sure, really, why it's not fun. but it's not.). somehow i can tell that this so-and-so tribe leader asking me to reason with the opposing group's elder councilman is just a robot giving me something to do so i will eventually have a dungeon with goons to fight and, occassionally, an exciting new jedi robe to pick off of a corpse and try on. the tribe leader is a tool. literally. and i can feel his grip on my course in the game, and it's cold and metallic as it wrenches me about.

it might seem unfair to complain about set pieces in an "rpg" when, just for example, squaresoft has been refining (never straying from) contrived characters, stories, and events in their games for a long time. yet the difference is that final fantasy games do not pretend not to be built from set pieces, so i do not notice that my game is made of them. my knowledge that i am playing a contrived program is suspended, much like my knowledge of physics when i watch spiderman 2, and i am able to enjoy the events and characters as if i really had anything to do with them. of course, this becomes more difficult on replays, because deja vu has a way of letting your subconscious know that something is amiss. nevertheless, on a single playthrough, the classic console-style rpg succeeds in convincing me of something real whereas bioware's computer rpgs do not, and perhaps cannot, because they try so hard to put on an appearance of vast open-endedness. in kotor, i must have heard almost every single line of dialogue; i listened to every cultural background and tried almost all options available to me. i talked to everybody. and it really does seem like a huge quantity of painted dolls with voiceboxes at starwarsland have fooled a lot of players into feeling something big and epic. everyone's always talking about omg the alignment system, you can be either good or bad! but the people in the game won't treat my character any differently either way, and this even includes the people in my party. it's just sad. it only matters when you hit the big glaring dialogue lever with malak at the end of the game. the game wants so badly for me to think that it's organic and open-ended that it just makes it more obvious to me that it is the complete opposite. and that's the real problem vs. other games where it's okay that they are contrived.

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I hate konami for not doing winning eleven in europe. I also hate them for not putting in 4 player in their recent turtle title.

i'm surprised you're not bitching about the annoying "kowbunga" soundbite being dropped every 10 seconds in that game.

where was their QA?

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3DO

While I got a little mired in the complexities of NWN, and bored by the middle sections of KOTOR, there were many aspects of the games I enjoyed a great deal. I'm quite looking forward to KOTOR II, but I just need to be in the right mood to sit down and play it rather than forcing my way through for the sake of playing it.

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Bullfrog, for not making Dungeon Keeper 3... Well, this was a shit reply but I can't say I hate any developer. I totally disagree with the opening post, I really, really adore bioware and their work. I am looking forward to Jade Empire at the moment.

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HEY WEINER. why don't you reply to me in a more detailed manner? and don't just say "you're wrong, so wrong" five hundred times and pretend it's an improvement.

Just stating my opinion. Maybe I should have added a :) ?

And spell my name right Gaurdian.

;)

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Nope. Kotor is my one and only Bioware title.   Not impressed.  But I'm reluctant to write off a game that so many people claim to like.

I don't actually like Halo but I can see why others do.  Kotor just puzzles me.

It's because it's Star Wars, plain and simple!

Stick turd in a box, label it Star Wars and people will buy it. Hell that's what Lucas Arts do most of the time as it is!!

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I can't say that I'm that impressed with Atari at the moment and I can sort of see why some people don't like EA at times but I don't think that there is a developer that I particually hate though. I'm suprised you dislike KOTOR so much though Guardian, I sense anger there, anger leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to not buying KOTOR II I guess :) I enjoyed it quite a lot, sure it does have it's faults but I found it ate into my time like no other game on the Xbox has. It's certainly not the worst game I have ever played by a long chalk, still if you don't like it you don't like I guess.

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One of the great mysteries to me, that game. It just seemed like a confusing, slow, ugly, bug-ridden mess. Yet it was hailed by many as a brilliant experience. And the whole scenario was more Star Trek than Star Wars. Especially all the anti-racism stuff. SW is quite the opposite in that department.

Something like Black & White can be sort of explained by the hype; Kings New Clothes type of thing. But KOTOR - people seem to genuinely like it.

I agree. I love RPGs but I found KOTOR to be souless. And the combat system is just an atrocity.

In fact, I'm going to go back to it - apparently I didn't give it enough of a chance (I would say that 5 hours is MORE than enough leeway you should give a game before it gets good). If I still think it's rubbish, Jumble Jumble is going to die.

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The only developer I groan when I hear mentioned is Raven.

Despite producing samey, uninspiring FPS for the PC that all suffer from the same problems, they keep getting given franchises to muck up.

Anyone know what they're up to at the moment?

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I`m saddened by Infogrames taking on the name of Atari. Atari should be remembered as the company pioneering gaming in the seventies and early eighties. Not to be used by Infogrames as a piece of hip clothing.

You`re too small to wear those clothes, Infogrames.

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I`m saddened by Infogrames taking on the name of Atari. Atari should be remembered as the company pioneering gaming in the seventies and early eighties. Not to be used by Infogrames as a piece of hip clothing.

You`re too small to wear those clothes, Infogrames.

Well said.

Calling a lump of coal a diamond doesn't actually turn it into one, Infogrammes.

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Bizarre Creations: rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

Bioware: rubbish.

Bungie: rubbish.

iD: great engines, rubbish games.

Valve: rubbish

Epic: . . .

Rockstar:

Gremlin (whatever happened to them??)

Sega AM2

Genki

Taito (and they made Puzzle Bobble, which is genius, and then succeed in buggering it up even more with each new version)

SNK - a load of deliberately inaccessible hardcore arse

Sega WOW - ironic name

There's more. I just can't be arsed.

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The only developer I groan when I hear mentioned is Raven.

Despite producing samey, uninspiring FPS for the PC that all suffer from the same problems, they keep getting given franchises to muck up.

Anyone know what they're up to at the moment?

Quake 4 :)

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Acclaim. Monkeys could run the company better. Not long till they go bust at least...

Acclaim just seem to piggyback on every other western developers successes now. If you look at their up coming releases they all seem so... dull.

I used to hate Domark, until Marco's Magic Football tho, that was heaven!

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