Why I Hate Squaresoft

[Ed-E]

Really, Ed. You surprise me.

Remember- a simple story well told always beats out a convoluted messy story told amateurishly.

Square just LOVE messy stories and amateurish storytelling.

R.

I don't disagree with you on your main point. Hell, I think that may be why I loved Shadow Hearts so much (and it's certainly why I loved Grandia II so much when all around me were saying the story was wank). I just don't think Xenogears has a messy plot. It's certainly convoluted, but I like being kept on my toes, and I like guessing what things mean and being proved totally wrong. I love stories that are bigger and grander than I could ever have initially thought. And I love a good old-fashioned love story being told extremely well.

I know the translation is terrible, I know the dialogue is stilted. But it's easy to see what's really behind it, and I can't help but think it has a heart of gold.

For you, though, I will check out Suikoden.

[dreamylittledream]

1) lol, everything. It leads to graceless, convoluted, needlessly unfun fluff that has no real connection to the game.

2) And a damned shame, that.

Hmmm maybe I phrased that wrong. But complexity isn't something to be afraid of....additional layers, different takes on battle systems...and in Suikoden III's case different takes on the same story add depth and provide a means for RPGs to evolve beyond the simple Tolkeinesque collect/destroy the items of power to save the world from an evil force etc.

As for point two: perhaps it is a shame but where do we go from here to develop the genre?

As for a simple story well told beating a complex messy one - true enough but when we have heard the story so many times before is there anything new to be found in the telling?

And no one should ignore Suikoden II just because it belongs to the Psone era...with a few exceptions the original Playstation still has the finest selection of role playing games yet produced....

[Sprite Machine]

Anyway...the random battle thing. Sprite Machine, the levelling up nonsense in these games is simply padding. There's no challenge in it. There's no skill involved.

Leveling up is bloody hard work!!!

What tactical ability is needed in FF games?

Plenty. Especially in the older ones.

What sense of development and progression is there?

Loads.

Most Final Fantasy games can be played for yonks, mindlessly leveled-up, and played to the end without a thought devoted to strategy.  That's my complaint.

Then why do it?

Leveling up to progress is a choice. If you get stuck, you can either adjust strategy or make yourself stronger. You don't have to, though. It's stops the games from being frustrating by not putting you up against an impassable wall. In many ways I see this as a very adaptive game design.

They are leaning on the level progression as a substitute for any real effort on the part of the player,

Again, people seem to be under the impression that leveling up requires no effort. If this were true, everyone would do it. They don't.

[El Spatula]

I find it hilarious that just because I defend Squaresoft, the old "You can't have played many RPG's" quote comes up.

I've played fucking loads, and yet which ones have stuck in my mind the most? Squaresoft ones.

Yes other companies make RPG's just as good, but they lack a certain something.

Anyways it's opinions and arseholes innit.

My point was that threads made purely to slag off a company are shite. We get Halo ones people get pissed off, but heeey it's fine to slag off non Halo games.

[Uzi]

Really, Ed. You surprise me.

Remember- a simple story well told always beats out a convoluted messy story told amateurishly.

Square just LOVE messy stories and amateurish storytelling.

R.

you must be pretty stupid then

ive never had a squaresoft game where the story is in any way messy or difficult to follow. in fact, most are pretty simple and formulaic. get 7-8 main characters, each have their own simple backplot, they all end up together for certain reason and fight one big evil and they have lots of travels and adventures on the way. how the hell is that messy?

you need to look at konami games (who make suikoden) like mgs2 and silent hills for messy (yet great) stories

[Guardian]

perhaps it is a shame [that Square games feature complexity for the sake of complexity] but where do we go from here to develop the genre?

We stop piling disconnected layers onto the games and instead revise the genre's core. Back to basics until the basics are working; then you can add as much complexity as you want so long as it does not compromise the core or come off as unrelated to it.

[Guardian]

1) Leveling up is bloody hard work!!!

2) Leveling up to progress is a choice. If you get stuck, you can either adjust strategy or make yourself stronger. You don't have to, though. It's stops the games from being frustrating by not putting you up against an impassable wall. In many ways I see this as a very adaptive game design.

1) My point throughout the thread has been: No, it isn't. It takes no real skill to fight relatively weak enemies again and again and again. (Note, I'm assuming "relatively weak" because the reason you need to level up is because you can't take on the toughest enemies available to you. See below for more.)

2) That has been my other point. No, it isn't. Not in Square games, not in Bioware games, not even in my beloved Earthbound or other celebrated rpgs. It's not a choice. There is hardly enough room for tactical power on the part of the player, which is a criticism in itself, and certainly in none of these rpgs is there enough room for it to allow for the possibility of overcoming experience-level gaps or handicaps between characters and enemies. You simply can't beat FF7 with your characters at level 10 no matter how clever you are. So leveling-up is a pre-requisite, not a chosen method, for progressing in the game.

[Popo]

you must be pretty stupid then

ive never had a squaresoft game where the story is in any way messy or difficult to follow. in fact, most are pretty simple and formulaic. get 7-8 main characters, each have their own simple backplot, they all end up together for certain reason and fight one big evil and they have lots of travels and adventures on the way. how the hell is that messy?

you need to look at konami games (who make suikoden) like mgs2 and silent hills for messy (yet great) stories

You obviously didn't really pay attention to FF VII then!

[Liquid Myth]

My point was that threads made purely to slag off a company are shite. We get Halo ones people get pissed off, but heeey it's fine to slag off non Halo games.

If that isn't hypocrisy in a single sentence, I don't know what is.

[Guardian]

If that isn't hypocrisy in a single sentence, I don't know what is.

You mean you were able to understand that sentence?!

[Uzi]

You obviously didn't really pay attention to FF VII then!

ive played through ff7 with a 90 hour file, and in terms of story elements, i encovered everything. I was 14 then and i still fail to see your point. if youre referring to that "twist" regarding clouds past, there are like 50 twists in the 6 hour metal gear solid. twists dont make for a complex and messy story, just for a good one

you want a messy story, like i said, play silent hilll

[Gabe]

I think part of the problem with RPGs is that they very rarely let you role-play. After all, most interaction is handled for you (save for pressing the X button every now and then), the story is all pre-determined, and most of the time is spent htting little creatures, without any real need for intelligent thought or skill.

Some of the conventions of RPGs are a little tired now, too. Why must I talk to everybody in a given area to proceed? Why must I fight hordes of monsters/people/aliens that have little to no bearing on the story? Why must *I* save the world?

I admit that I don't have the answers, but I would like to see a new approach taken - it just is begining to feel stale.

[Popo]

ive played through ff7 with a 90 hour file, and in terms of story elements, i encovered everything. I was 14 then and i still fail to see your point.

The inference being of course that anyone who wasn't of the opinion that it was a great, complex story is stupid - even a child could get it! Great.

I was 15 when I played the game and understood it then too - doesn't mean it wasn't a great, complex storyline. More than just Cloud's story - more than just the origins of Jenova - more than the explaination of Reuinion - more than the insanity of Sephiroth. Plenty of complex stuff to enjoy.

Which I did, immeasurably.

[Uzi]

The inference being of course that anyone who wasn't of the opinion that it was a great, complex story is stupid - even a child could get it! Great.

I was 15 when I played the game and understood it then too - doesn't mean it wasn't a great, complex storyline. More than just Cloud's story - more than just the origins of Jenova - more than the explaination of Reuinion - more than the insanity of Sephiroth. Plenty of complex stuff to enjoy.

Which I did, immeasurably.

oh i see, what i mean originally while the story has depth it is in no way messy or over complex

youd have to be an absolute idiot not to get ff7

[biglime]

oh i see, what i mean originally while the story has depth it is in no way messy or over complex

youd have to be an absolute idiot not to get ff7

Who didn't get it?

It was cookie-cutter stuff. But the problem lies in dressing up cookie-cutter stuff with pretentious sub-text, unnecessary twists and boring flashbacks to somehow create the impression that something else is going on.

I have no problem with an RPG that has an honest to god good against evil story, without all the bullshit.

R.

[Uzi]

Who didn't get it?

It was cookie-cutter stuff. But the problem lies in dressing up cookie-cutter stuff with pretentious sub-text, unnecessary twists and boring flashbacks to somehow create the impression that something else is going on.

I have no problem with an RPG that has an honest to god good against evil story, without all the bullshit.

R.

there wouldnt be a story if one was to cut out what you just suggested. i enjoyed every second of that bullshit so id guess its just what youd tolerate personally.

[biglime]

Standards are simply far too low. People should be demanding that videogame scriptwriters fucking WORK at it a bit.

R.

[Uzi]

Standards are simply far too low. People should be demanding that videogame scriptwriters fucking WORK at it a bit.

R.

you have to remember the japs are sqauresoft make it primarily for a jap audience. and most jap rpgs follow this suit, and it sells. very very well.

on the western side of things we have dungeons and dragons nerds to write our mythical tales.

ff7 story would come out awful in a book or *gulp* film, but as a long term rpg i thought it hit the right notes imo

[Liquid Myth]

you have to remember the japs are sqauresoft make it primarily for a jap audience.

If it was made for the Japanese, then

a) why should we, as Westerners who are no obvious importance to how the game is made, have to put up with the shit that is made for someone else, and then have to start acting all hardcore and pretentious to give a shit?

b) if the story were to be made to a Western point of view, where do the rules state that they must be explicitly targetted towards the D&D players? What about non-D&D western RPGs?

c) if it was made for the Japanese, where's the tentacle rape?

[Uzi]

If it was made for the Japanese, then

a) why should we, as Westerners who are no obvious importance to how the game is made, have to put up with the shit that is made for someone else, and then have to start acting all hardcore and pretentious to give a shit?

B) if the story were to be made to a Western point of view, where do the rules state that they must be explicitly targetted towards the D&D players? What about non-D&D western RPGs?

c) if it was made for the Japanese, where's the tentacle rape?

(a) i did say primarily, no need to get your knickers in a twist. we are bonus cash for square, their main sales take place in japan then in the us where rpgs are much bigger than in europe. they get plenty money so they really dont care what you or i think. dont like it, tough, whine at them, not me. i said i just enjoy the games

B) like what? sudeki?

c) get a hose pipe and use your imagination

[Ryan]

How can anyone like FFX over Xenogears? :-/

The latter had a fantastic anime plot, and a pretty damn good game behind that. Also, the music was fantastic.

FFX.. meh :-/

[Jim Miles]

And ROBOTS!

I thought the mecha battles in Xenogears were jolly fun - a bit similar to how Skies Of Arcadia did its ship battles and normal battles.

I've not actually played much Xenogears but having played Skies Of Arcadia since then there do seem to be quite a few similarities.

[Wiper]

B ) like what? sudeki?

Er, how about:

The System Shock series

Deus Ex

The Fallout series

Lionheart

Planescape: Torment

?

[Uzi]

Er, how about:

The System Shock series

Deus Ex

The Fallout series

Lionheart

Planescape: Torment

?

pc games, ie appealing to the dnd nerdy made games

deus ex and system shock are more adventure imo than strict rpg so dont even go there

[biglime]

Seriously. What lessons the Japanese could learn from a game as brilliantly scripted as Planescape: Torment.

R.

[Uzi]

Seriously. What lessons the Japanese could learn from a game as brilliantly scripted as Planescape: Torment.

R.

theyd ask why everyone doesnt have huge eyes

[Guardian]

1) you have to remember the japs are sqauresoft make it primarily for a jap audience. and most jap rpgs follow this suit, and it sells. very very well.

2) on the western side of things we have dungeons and dragons nerds to write our mythical tales.

3) ff7 story would come out awful in a book or *gulp* film, but as a long term rpg i thought it hit the right notes imo

1) oh PLEASE. So let's all just sit on our hands and eat it then.

2) continuing nicely from (1)'s easy-peasy dualism market design philosophy. this is trite and ridiculous. And your wording.. actually I don't even know what the problem is but I'm offended. I'm just offended by your attitude in some way. Oh god am I offended.

3) WAKE UP FF7 IS A FILM. And I'm not talking about Advent Children or whatever. You don't have enough tactical power as a player in a game where statistics and tedious level-building are necessary to progress. The story is a script, like Grant said--this isn't a role-playing game. It's a poorly constructed movie. You should realize, by the way, that I liked FF7. I really did. But it's still freaking retarded. I'm too tired to repeat all of my arguments all over again. Sephiroth on a Stick.

[Uzi]

Oh god am I offended.

always happy to help

[Guardian]

Er, how about:

The System Shock series

Deus Ex

The Fallout series

Lionheart

Planescape: Torment

?

pc games, ie appealing to the dnd nerdy made games

My willpower is growing weak. I might deteriorate into a flaming savage if I don't leave right now, so off I go. Twitch.

[Uzi]

bye

*ps im making a huge generalisation just like everyone else is in regards to squaregames. thatll show ya