bad shmup, bad

[Guardian]

some of my gripes were beginning to be discussed in the gradius v thread, so i decided to take something i wrote at insert credit and repeat it here with the hope that we can all talk about what we love and hate in shmups. if anyone wants to suggest a system of classification, that would be fun, too. some ideas might be by horizontal/vertical, by scoring systems, by bullet style, or by the presence of indestructible obstacles.

with the rise of gradius v, this may be a good time to talk about something that's on my mind. i love the gradius series, i do, but it also makes me uncomfortable. the options system of gradius has always bothered me. the choices in r-type too. so many shooters have their own system of decisions you can make about weapon types, and i just don't feel right about that. obviously there are different kinds of shmups and these characteristics set their series apart, but i feel so much more.. right about a game like ikaruga (could there be a better example?) that lacks upgrades or choices.

one of the worst things about an upgrade-centered gameplay is that, if you die, you lose everything and it is usually enormously handicapping to be so vulnerable in a late area of the game. this is backwards. a game should be harder when you're doing well and easier when you're having trouble. the game should not punish you for dying. this only leads to frustration and a lot of swearing.

finally, i was playing r-type 3 last night and, whenever i died, the game faded to black and restarted me at a set continue point some time earlier. i hate this. it breaks the rhythm and adrenaline of the game completely.

this may seem silly, but i realized recently that some shmup series force you to dodge all manner of indestructible physical objects, often navigating through tight spaces, while others are defensively focused simply on avoiding enemies and their attacks. does anyone have a preference here? again, my feeling is that games that simplify to the bare elements are the most pleasing, and i tend to prefer shooters like the esp series and ikaruga (most of it) in this division.

i haven't even brought up anything related to scoring yet!

so what do you like and dislike in a shmup?

[Hackign]

I have an idea for a shmup which I'm currently developing*. I'm always coming up with ideas for shmups lately.

*Hoping it'll magically appear.

To be honest I prefer the dodge a million bullets shmup to the kill a million ships shmup. Feels much more satisfying having successly navigated my way through the bullets.

[pledge]

One thing I hate in home versions is practice modes. To practice a level you have to have already completed it. I want level to be available to be practiced once I have *reached* that level. Then I dont have to keep replaying the earlier stages just to get a look at it.

[Guardian]

i agree with you there.

in the other thread i believe this is the distinction that was made between r-type and, say, psyvariar. is it only coincidence that the dodging type tends to be vertical?

[df0]

I like bulletdodging but I hate almost-impossible-to-dogde bulletpatterns like in ESP Ra De and Dodonpachi (the later levels). Dimahoo, now thát is nice bulletdodging. And Strikers 1945.

Just my two cent

[Stroker Ace]

Yes, there's no substitute for a GOOD bullet wave, but this 'throw as much at 'em as possible from every angle nonsense isn't fun. A good bullet waveis a torturous thing to navigate, but infinitely rewarding.

[rjpageuk]

a game should be harder when you're doing well and easier when you're having trouble.

I totally agree with this, and it is present in Radiant Silvergun which really irritates me.

The weapon levelling system of RS takes the difficulty away from all the bosses when you are good at the game which is completely backwards.

The best thing about the game is the bosses, yet the more you play and the better you get the easier they become and the less you see of them.

As you say it is totally backwards.

[Alex W.]

Yes, the upgrade systems in most scrolling shooters is totally backwards. This is especially apparent when you die and there is absolutely no point in using your leftover lives.

[Salsa Party Animal]

I would like a shoot them up to go top from bottom, when you reach the top, you need to turn round and shoot from top to bottom to finish off the wreck in 1942 style with jeeps, helicopters, and plane.

I also want to see a shoot them up doing different style ie left to right in next level. Just to spice thing up and piss people off with plasma TV who are set up in tate mode

[Sabreman]

I also want to see a shoot them up doing different style ie left to right in next level. Just to spice thing up and piss people off with plasma TV who are set up in tate mode

Salamander, baby.

[Salsa Party Animal]

Salamander Baby ?

[Uncle Nasty]

one of the worst things about an upgrade-centered gameplay is that, if you die, you lose everything and it is usually enormously handicapping to be so vulnerable in a late area of the game. this is backwards. a game should be harder when you're doing well and easier when you're having trouble. the game should not punish you for dying. this only leads to frustration and a lot of swearing.

I agree 100% about power-ups. I bought Gradius III and IV for the PS2 recently and found it mostly unplayable because of the power-up system. Getting robbed of your power-ups right before a boss fight is ludicrous, at best you'll manage to keep a solitary speed-up but it's usually next to impossible to recover. I think Raiden had the right idea with the power-ups circling you for a limited time after getting killed, it at least offered you a chance of enjoying the rest of the level.

I'm bored of boss fights too, I'd much rather see a Galaga style bonus wave every other round, just for a bit of variation and an opportunity to rack up some more points. Shooters can be too heavily weighted against you and not offer much in the way of pure fun, occasional bonus waves would be an ideal way to take the pressure off for a while.

[Gabe]

I guess a lot of the 'losing power-ups on death' stems from arcades, whereby it would be a device to ensure you would continue to pump money into it. The modern equivalent would seem to be to draw out the playtime. I guess.

As for an alternative, anybody remember X-Out on the Amiga? You got money from destroying ships, and had to buy extra ships (lives) at the end of a level, but you could kit them out without whatever you could afford - so you could get, say, 10 poorly-equipped ships or 5 well-equipped ships. Avoided the power-up issue, at least. Good system, I thought.

[Eoin]

I think Raiden had the right idea with the power-ups circling you for a limited time after getting killed, it at least offered you a chance of enjoying the rest of the level.

Provided that you were patient and collected them in some kind of order, instead of taking a chance, flying right through them....and ending up with the same weapon .

One other thing that was good about Raiden were the little fairy things you could collect that, as well as giving lots of points, appeared when you died and showered you with power-ups, possibly including a handy "P" which instantly returned you to full weapons.

Just out of interest, has there ever been a shmup that started the player with puny peashooters and upgraded them whenever they died? With the sheer amount of freeware shmups now available exploring the genre as widely as possible, I'm guessing there must have been.

[Qazimod]

To be honest I prefer the dodge a million bullets shmup to the kill a million ships shmup. Feels much more satisfying having successly navigated my way through the bullets.

Mm; it's essentially what separates Ikaruga from Dodonpachi. The feeling of "ooooooooh shit" when Ikaruga's first boss fires those grenades at me is unmatched. And as for the later chapters...

[Graham S]

Salamander Baby ?

[Graham S]

I guess a lot of the 'losing power-ups on death' stems from arcades, whereby it would be a device to ensure you would continue to pump money into it. The modern equivalent would seem to be to draw out the playtime. I guess.

Good point. I guess that's why I'm loving aracde games on emulation at the moment, with free credits you are just mainlining fun instead of experiencing a carefully amortised level of fun intended to be spread out over 40 hours.

[shynra]

I like bulletdodging but I hate almost-impossible-to-dogde bulletpatterns like in ESP Ra De and Dodonpachi (the later levels). Dimahoo, now thát is nice bulletdodging. And Strikers 1945.

Just my two cent

Yeah i remember in a few shmups where i see the bullet leave teh enmy - i move my ship to avoid - but it still hits!!! because my ship is too slow/bullet moves too fast!!!

as for powerups... i like the gradus way in a way.. but it totally falls apart the moment you loose a life!! i normally lose a life quite late on in the game, and i get redused to nothing!!! a slow un-meverable ship that is just canon fodder in the later levels (heck cant even dodje at this speed!!!).... and then it doesnt really let you swith between normal and laser easly to change depending on the situation or anything so i normally go for percentages and take the lazer. Even in RS where your given all the wepons at the start, which i liked (use the right wepon in the right situation (if you do, you will soon find out the seeking gun (green blobs B) are useless) but even then people complained about not being able to collect better wepons @_@;..

anyway it sceemes to be just one big comprimise... im happy with any shooter really, but unavoidable bullets piss me off

[Yod@]

I like bulletdodging but I hate almost-impossible-to-dogde bulletpatterns like in ESP Ra De and Dodonpachi (the later levels). Dimahoo, now thát is nice bulletdodging. And Strikers 1945.

Just my two cent

o/\o

Agreed. All the Psikyo games I've played (e.g. Strikers 1945, Gun Bird, Sengoku Blade) have had great balance between difficulty and numbers of bullets on-screen - they all have enough of a difficulty level to challenge experienced players, but never with a ridiculously extreme number of bullets to be avoided.

Anyone seen the video of the final boss of Psyvariar 2 being beaten on without losing a life? It's *very* impressive technically, but not my cup of tea to play.

[Streets Of Rage]

i love the system used in capcoms area 88 where you save up to buy better ships which can handle more weaponry and you also buy weapons for your current ships at the start of every level, i found the system to work really well and not become frustrating like R Type can very quikcly become !

[Jim Miles]

The thing that pisses me off most in a shmup is the 'losing powerups' problem that Guardian mentioned in the first post. It's a cheap and nasty way for arcade shooters to yom your money. There's no denying that it's a great reward for not losing a life to have a mega powered-up vessel but that joy is far outweighed by the unfairness of losing it all so easily.

Pop 'n' Twinbee has a jolly way of overcoming this by leaving the shell of your ship when you die - if you can retrieve it when you respawn then you get all the powerups you had previously. If you were too near the top of the screen when you died however then kiss that possibility goodbye! Genius.

But then, my favourite type of shmup is the one that you can really learn like Ikaruga or Radiant Silvergun - it doesn't diminish the skill required, but adds some stability, some strategy to the scoring. I like that.

[Qazimod]

The thing that pisses me off most in a shmup is the 'losing powerups' problem that Guardian mentioned in the first post. It's a cheap and nasty way for arcade shooters to yom your money. There's no denying that it's a great reward for not losing a life to have a mega powered-up vessel but that joy is far outweighed by the unfairness of losing it all so easily.

Pop 'n' Twinbee has a jolly way of overcoming this by leaving the shell of your ship when you die - if you can retrieve it when you respawn then you get all the powerups you had previously.

Ah, a bit like Dodonpachi? (die and your weapon that has been upgraded through several powerups floats around for a bit as a mega powerup.)

Also, I think that shooters should give the player infinite continues, but at the end of the game impose a penalty of x'000 points for each continue used.

[Jim Miles]

Also, I think that shooters should give the player infinite continues, but at the end of the game impose a penalty of x'000 points for each continue used.

Interesting idea. Maybe x,000 x 2^n for n continues used and a given value of x?

I quite like that thing many games do of reserving the last 2 digits of a score for how many continues have been used. "Look at my massive score!", "The last 2 digits are 23 - you used 23 continues dude?!!!". lol.

[Qazimod]

Interesting idea. Maybe x,000 x 2^n for n continues used and a given value of x?

Yeah, but that'd result in a score in minus figures for me!

[shynra]

Interesting idea. Maybe x,000 x 2^n for n continues used and a given value of x?

I quite like that thing many games do of reserving the last 2 digits of a score for how many continues have been used. "Look at my massive score!", "The last 2 digits are 23 - you used 23 continues dude?!!!". lol.

Nope even better (se radient silvergun again) at the end of the game, if you used more than one credit you are NOT allowed to go on the high score table , the faires way possible i think...

[Jim Miles]

Haha, yeah that's certainly a good thing to do. Lots of games have multiple high score tables though so they could have a 'no continues' table and a 'lamer' table.

[Qazimod]

What about a screen that shows high scores sorted by score and then a swishy transition to a screen that shows high scores sorted by used credits/continues? Did that make sense? E.g.

1. QAZ - 1'233'948 - 4'837 C

2. JIM - 1'037'119 - 1 C

3. SHY - 993'328 - 32 C

4. SOR - 745'398 - 24 C

(swish-swish)

1. JIM - 1'037'119 - 1 C

2. SOR - 745'398 - 24C

3. SHY - 993'328 - 32 C

4. QAZ - 1'233'948 - 4'837 C

Or something.