Making Games

[biglime]

This is just something I've wondered about recently. I've been doing a lot of thinking.

There's obviously a lot of people like us at rllmuk. People who like playing games that are a bit different. People who remember the creativity of the 'bedroom coding' days. People who want to see games that are better written. There's a market for this type of game...

What are the realities of forming a start-up games development company these days? One that approaches gaming with an emphasis upon creativity and a lot of the bedroom coding mentality. Not a company that produces games for PS2 and XBox and the like, but a company that creates games for the PC, or even the Amiga. Or even the Spectrum. A company that perhaps aims to form unique ties with bigger devcos and publishers by creating 'concept content' (this is something I've just invented).

So, yes. Self-publishing, forward-thinking, backwards-remembering, ever-producing, fan-pleasing and...profitable? How? Is it at all possible?

I'm going for a bath for a bit, but I think it'd be good to have a bit of a discussion about this.

R.

[Andsom]

I'd be up for mucking in. Don't have any programming knowledge but I'm in my final year of an Animation and electronic media degree so I know a fair bit of Maya and stuff (Although I much prefer animating in 2D).

[Ed-E]

There's a load of us who do this sort of thing over in the Development forum, although not for money.

I don't know if it's particularly feasible as a business. The right people to ask would be the Pickfords, as they're in the process of doing something a little like this. Checking out GarageGames.com might be an idea too.

And biglime - I've got a challenge for you once my engine is a bit more substantial. I want you to put your money where your mouth is with regards to game stories...

[DJ Sack]

Its a huge business, real player games can make hundreds if not thousands of pounds, all self made and self published through real player.

Its just because it isnt advertised that you dont know about it, its very under ground.

[Ed-E]

A little more about my 'venture': I'm currently building an engine to handle low-poly adventure/RPG games, not with the intent of making some 'GRAND GAME' but rather a collection of short stories, quick games - no more than 5 hours long (and preferably around the 2-3 hour mark), which I intend to release for free (but hey, if the quality is good, I'd never say no to selling them for, say, £5 or something... but that's for the future; for now, free).

The hard part will be doing the engine, which I'm progressing slowly on. I don't think it's particularly feasible, but I try not to think of that - I have to have blind passion in what I'm doing to have the motivation to do anything at all. So, you don't need to tell me it's a tall order. I know it is. That's what makes it fun.

[tiedtiger]

Its a huge business, real player games can make hundreds if not thousands of pounds, all self made and self published through real player.

Its just because it isnt advertised that you dont know about it, its very under ground.

And mostly puzzlers

If you're a programmer by trade, I'd imagine it would be relatively easy. If, on the other hand, you're of the writer/designer bent like me (all ideas and paper, no coding) then there just aint no room for you at the inn, I suspect.

[Ed-E]

And mostly puzzlers

If you're a programmer by trade, I'd imagine it would be relatively easy. If, on the other hand, you're of the writer/designer bent like me (all ideas and paper, no coding) then there just aint no room for you at the inn, I suspect.

There's a simple solution: learn. We all had to at some point!

[tiedtiger]

There's a simple solution: learn. We all had to at some point!

I would do if I were dedicated enough. I even have a copy of blitz knocking about here somewhere. But I'm not really that interested in games as a whole, and more interested in doing things with writing.

[Venice Cull]

Hmmm, not sure. I'm know this won't be a popular view but I'm not so sure that the best people to be writing proftable videogames are the 'hardcore' gamers.

I mean, like you said 'backward remembering'. The output would either be tied into 20 years of gaming mindset (bosses, lives, difficulty) or that fruitless search for 'INNOV@TION' that would result in a crappy puzzle game/2D 'shmup/vanity project ("oooo Magnets and Powerups!") that only a select few would actually enjoy. And if you're going for 'profitability' then I'm not so sure this would be the way forward.

Actually, something with Magnets and Powerups might be quite cool. Where do I sign up?

[RJames]

All I'll say is that making a *living* out of something like this would be very VERY difficult.

The Pickfords' idea is one thing, this is even MORE underground.

It might be fun, but it won't make you rich.

edit: also what VC said. There was an article on GamesCentral (by Breaksmith?) about how 'they' need to stop making games for gamers and that something more original might attract non-gamers. I completely disagree -- it's the 'hardcore' who are bored by driving/fps/3ps/rts games and the casual buyer who keeps buying the driv3rs and FIFAs of this world.

[Andsom]

I was reading the thing in the Development folder. Game based entirely on Rllmuk in-jokes = worst idea ever.

[biglime]

I'm obviously approaching this with my background being in TV, so I'm applying a lot of TV production experience to the thing...

Okay. You have your independent production companies in TV. These companies develop ideas, then take these ideas to broadcasters or bigger production companies. At the indie production level, its all about concepts and formats. Because of this, you often find that an indie company might consist of people with backgrounds in TV production, advertising, writing, marketing, all of that stuff.

Is there any potential in an independent games company that performs the same kind of function? In a way, you would be interacting with top-level development, because you might be supplying concepts for certain developers, or even people who can perform certain roles. In the meantime, you have a group of creatives who are constantly devising new ideas for the emergent platforms, and you're also supporting individuals who want to code projects for retro machines.

I know that there are still people making C64 games, for example, but these games aren't made in the fashion that C64 aficianados would like (big boxes, maps, manuals). But my thinking is that with the frequency of remakes of old games, there must be some potential in a creative gaming company that supports the development of 'new old games' for retro gamers, with an eye towards presenting these 'new old games' as potential jump-off points for 'new new games' in the modern or future market.

(Breathe)

R.

[Willei]

I'd be up for mucking in. Don't have any programming knowledge but I'm in my final year of an Animation and electronic media degree so I know a fair bit of Maya and stuff (Although I much prefer animating in 2D).

Hey, if distributed development can work for Airbus, it can work for us!*

* you!

[Fry Crayola]

There are quite a few of us who take an active interest in games. It's fraught with problems though - the main one being motivation. Trying to keep at something when it's very easy to just play the games you already own can be very difficult at times, and the longer a gap you leave since you last worked, the less likely you are to do it.

Profitable? That's a toughie. If the entire thing was coded by one guy in a six month period (and that would manage to make a simple game) he'd want to earn at least £5k from it to cover his own living costs. Going part time it's much easier, but then its harder to maintain the motivation after a hard day's main work. So unless it's a workable commercial idea or taps into a massive fanbase (see New Star Soccer for proof that it is possible to make a bit of cash) you aren't going to see the monetary rewards.

It's not all about cash though. When I started work (ages ago, I'll admit) on TCFG it was a desire to produce an update Sensible Soccer clone with better management. I would release it into the public domain and be happy if I heard a hundred people liked it. Now its design has evolved into something very different, and very ambitious, and with that comes greater ambition with what I hope to achieve.

And for the most part, I'm living in a dream world. Not with regards to the games content, but regarding any rewards. It's nice to have that dream, but realistically, no. It's a very different market now, homebrew software just doesn't have the same fire in it.

There are still excellent games though. A small team could sit down and come up with games to rival any major release in terms of playability, originality and in a few cases even production values. But for profit? I don't know.

[Fry Crayola]

Cronosoft at the moment would be perhaps the only outlet for new "old" games on the older platforms. Releasing games in cassette boxes (I don't know how the disc packaging is, if it even exists), with proper packaging and tapes. If I had the time and the knowhow I'd like to throw together a few just for the fun of having a proper release on the CPC. I'd like that.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I'm currently working on a game which is the basic core of a fleshed-out idea.

No story. No wicked physics or raytrace-quality graphics with dynamic lighting and hi-res shadowmaps. I can do that stuff (I'm a professional 3D artist after all), but I don't want to drown in tons of artwork and loose my motivation like on previous projects.

Just an idea ('I wonder if it would be possible to play a game if...') I thought up during a boring meeting, a set of rules, an editor to build lots of levels with and that's about it. Obviously there's a huge amount of stuff going on in the background, but most of this will be completely invisible to the player.

The kind of game that literally was designed on a single sheet of paper. (Although I did a real designpaper before I started the main coding). And even that is taking me lots of time to get working, polished and looking good. The good news is that I've got playable code, and the initial idea was a good one. I find my own game addictive. Thank God.

[Ed-E]

I'm obviously approaching this with my background being in TV, so I'm applying a lot of TV production experience to the thing...

Okay. You have your independent production companies in TV. These companies develop ideas, then take these ideas to broadcasters or bigger production companies. At the indie production level, its all about concepts and formats. Because of this, you often find that an indie company might consist of people with backgrounds in TV production, advertising, writing, marketing, all of that stuff.

Is there any potential in an independent games company that performs the same kind of function? In a way, you would be interacting with top-level development, because you might be supplying concepts for certain developers, or even people who can perform certain roles. In the meantime, you have a group of creatives who are constantly devising new ideas for the emergent platforms, and you're also supporting individuals who want to code projects for retro machines.

(Breathe)

R.

Ignoring the retro bit for a minute, yes, there are companies that do this sort of thing... or at least, I'm pretty sure they do. It's becoming fashionable - or rather just better sense, I don't know - to outsource different aspects of the production process so it's not inconcievable that 'design' is one of those. The only such group I know of is International Hobo, which is the company the semi-famous (in the games industry anyway) Ernest Adams works for. They do the full design work including bits that may not always be seen as strictly 'design' areas (level design, for instance, and writing/scripting).

I know that there are still people making C64 games, for example, but these games aren't made in the fashion that C64 aficianados would like (big boxes, maps, manuals). But my thinking is that with the frequency of remakes of old games, there must be some potential in a creative gaming company that supports the development of 'new old games' for retro gamers, with an eye towards presenting these 'new old games' as potential jump-off points for 'new new games' in the modern or future market.

In the cut-throat state of the industry at the moment, I'd doubt it could work. But who knows?

[biglime]

And biglime - I've got a challenge for you once my engine is a bit more substantial. I want you to put your money where your mouth is with regards to game stories...

Don't sing it.

Bring it.

R.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Is it possible to start something from scratch and make a living?

No idea.

But I'm going to give it a go.

Actually I know damned well it's possible, but a lot of people are having the same idea at the moment. That either means that indie games are going to take off big time (or medium time at least) or the market will become flooded in versions of arkanoid\bejewelled.

[Ed-E]

Is it possible to start something from scratch and make a living?

No idea.

But I'm going to give it a go.

Actually I know damned well it's possible, but a lot of people are having the same idea at the moment. That either means that indie games are going to take off big time (or medium time at least) or the market will become flooded in versions of arkanoid\bejewelled.

I think your past success with Z1 will help you in this respect - Superior Interactive seem to be doing quite well out of the "look at us we made good games once, watch us do it again!" thing.

It'll get you specialist press notice. Obviously not enough to make or break you, but it's a handy weapon for you to use. Especially if you decide to remake any of your past games... there's a whole throng of 'I *heart* the 80s' people out there.

[biglime]

It's the 'making a living' part of it that scares me.

R.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

or the market will become flooded in versions of arkanoid\bejewelled.

It's an interesting point you raise here, as 'simple bedroom-games' can be easily cloned and therefore drown in it's peers. I'm a bit afraid to let the idea my game is based on loose into the wide world, as somebody might just steal it and come up with something before I've even finished it. I guess working in 3D makes it a bit harder though.

[Andsom]

I think it needs to be something really special to draw enough attention to get noticed. Just searching the net for stuff like this brings up literally hundreds of shitty games that people have knocked up in an afternoon on the Games Factory, and I for one really can't be ared trawling through them all.

In fact the only two things I could actually find in the little 5 minute search I did just do are the up-coming Vampyre Story and Giddy 3 a great little Dizzy clone which is the sequel to some old Amiga shareware games which I never played.

If you already have a reasonably well-known reputation or franchise which you can build on, I'm sure it will be lot simpler which is why I think Revolution are in with a good shot. I know afew people who have already gone to the trouble of downloading the free versions of Lure of the Temptress and Beneath a Steel Sky.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

It's the 'making a living' part of it that scares me.

R.

No kidding.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

It's an interesting point you raise here, as 'simple bedroom-games' can be easily cloned and therefore drown in it's peers. I'm a bit afraid to let the idea my game is based on loose into the wide world, as somebody might just steal it and come up with something before I've even finished it. I guess working in 3D makes it a bit harder though.

There's nothing wrong with simple, so long as it's reasonably original.

Sticky Balls was prototyped in an afternoon. Of course a lot more work went into it but the proof-of-concept version was written in a matter of hours.

There's no shortage of people who'll tell you that simple games aren't worth selling or aren't worth full price or whatever; right after spending dozens of hours playing your 'simple' game.

I reckon if a game is entertaining enough it doesn't matter if it took 20 seconds to make. The value is in the idea and the entertainment you get from the game.

[biglime]

I was talking to Trip Hawkins a bit ago, and he was saying that the worst thing ever to happen to the industry was the reluctance of publishers and developers to support auteurs. No-one wants to address authorship of concept anymore.

R.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I was talking to Trip Hawkins a bit ago, and he was saying that the worst thing ever to happen to the industry was the reluctance of publishers and developers to support auteurs. No-one wants to address authorship of concept anymore.

R.

EA was originally founded on that very principle. Electronic Arts.

The irony.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

It seems my 'little idea' has already spawned 2130 lines of spaghetti

[JPickford (retired mod)]

It seems my 'little idea' has already spawned 2130 lines of spaghetti

I hope you're not using GOTO.

Just counted (for the first time), I'm up to 13,475 lines of code. All in the last 3-4 months. So I DO work in between posting!

[biglime]

So where would a guy find a bunch of professional, gifted coders who are disillusioned by the process these days and would like to be united under a new trailblazing banner?

R.