Making Games

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Nah, I'm using a frame-limiting loop with a state machine which calls all necessary functions depending on the state the program is in at the time. It's pretty tidy, although I'll do a review session shortly to weed out all the loose bits that got in there.

My only bad coding habit is that I like to nest a lot of IF statements.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

So where would a guy find a bunch of professional, gifted coders who are disillusioned by the process these days and would like to be united under a new trailblazing banner?

R.

The ECTS bar?

[Ed-E]

So where would a guy find a bunch of professional, gifted coders who are disillusioned by the process these days and would like to be united under a new trailblazing banner?

R.

Hell. When frozen over.

Nah, I'm a-joking. I don't think finding disillusioned programmers will be a particularly hard prospect, but finding ones willing to gamble on this... is a different matter.

If I was an industry professional... I'd probably say no. But in a really nice way, honest.

[Ed-E]

The ECTS bar?

From the look of this (shambolic and frankly embarrasing) ECTS-GDCE vs. EGN-EDF war, you might see the organisers of ECTS drowning their sorrows in there too...

[biglime]

I'm thinking more of people who have fallen out of the industry, maybe...

Hm...

R.

[Preacher]

It's funny. I Logged on earlier tonight with the intent of posting a new topic called "games ideas". I wanted to gauge the capacity for creativity amongst gamers, in the hope that at least the games player had an idea of what they wanted to see in a game.

Whether that translates to a viable and/or profitable business is something I can't answer, I've no knowledge of this area of the business, but I know damned well that we're being hindered by the creatively stifled industry we more often than not tolerate.

I had an idea for a game today whilst driving home from the seaside with a friend. As he was a policeman, we were talking about murder cases and missing persons. I asked him, rather fesciously,

"what if they faked their own death?".

Then it clicked. What about a game where you fake your own death? Though contextually it might be somewhat controversial (I can see the "ban this sick filth" headlines now), a game that put you in that scenario where you had to leave everything behind and start afresh - wouldn't that be an escape? Isn't that what gaming is about? I'm sick of shooting. I'm sick of sneaking and role-playing. All I seem to do these days is ponder what might come in ten or fifteen years time.

We have independent film makers. Music can be made in a garage and still sound fantastic. The fact that the guy with an idea can't realise it is, in all honesty, baffling. In conclusion, it's nice to see that people aren't prepared to sit back and accept whatever new games are thrown at them.

[Fry Crayola]

I think the "making a living" scares everyone who's ever thought about it, really. I'd love to be able to make a living out of it, getting up at whatever time, working to my own deadline and still being able to eat, and have heating and stuff.

Unfortunately, "making a living" and producing the games you want to make aren't always compatible.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

The fact that the guy with an idea can't realise it is, in all honesty, baffling. In conclusion, it's nice to see that people aren't prepared to sit back and accept whatever new games are thrown at them.

That's because it's bloody hard! And incredibly painstaking. You can write a script and shoot\edit a film in a matter of days or weeks. A game is a different matter, there are no real short-cuts.

A better comparison would be an animated film - you don't get a lot of independant full-length animated films being made. How long did the Roger Rabbit bloke spend on The Cobbler and The Thief? Is he finished yet?

Oh, and an idea for a scenario is not a game idea. You need a lot more than that.

That touches on one of my frustrations as a game designer. Everyone thinks they can do it; so there is almost zero respect for game design as a skill\craft\art (whatever it is).

Nobody will buy a game design doc. Every developer has a zillion ideas already. Unfortunately nobody will fund the development of anything interesting.

[Ed-E]

That's because it's bloody hard! And incredibly painstaking. You can write a script and shoot\edit a film in a matter of days or weeks. A game is a different matter, there are no real short-cuts.

A better comparison would be an animated film - you don't get a lot of independant full-length animated films being made. How long did the Roger Rabbit bloke spend on The Cobbler and The Thief? Is he finished yet?

Oh, and an idea for a scenario is not a game idea. You need a lot more than that.

That touches on one of my frustrations as a game designer. Everyone thinks they can do it; so there is almost zero respect for game design as a skill\craft\art (whatever it is).

Nobody will buy a game design doc. Every developer has a zillion ideas already. Unfortunately nobody will fund the development of anything interesting.

Exactly. It's all too easy to come up with an intriguing concept, only to suddenly think "waaaait a second: where's the gameplay?".

I don't know if I'll ever be good at designing games. I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to come up with those sorts of ideas (although that's not to say there's nothing to learn). I don't think I'm one of those people, but John is.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

You can write a script and shoot\edit a film in a matter of days or weeks. A game is a different matter, there are no real short-cuts.

I'm not trying to belittle filmmakers BTW. I realise it take an enormous amount of energy to mobilise the people and raise the cash to make even a low-budget project.

[Andsom]

How long did the Roger Rabbit bloke spend on The Cobbler and The Thief? Is he finished yet?

That was finished in the mid 90s. I think I'm correct in saying that although Richard Williams worked on it for something like 20 years Miramax basically changed a load of it and finished it off.

Anyway, back on topic...

[biglime]

That's a great point, John.

It's not about the scenario. Because any of us can go...okay, here's a great story for a game, blah blah blah. Here's a great idea for a platform game, blah, blah, blah. A writer, for example, can never express through words the 'feel' of a great game. The intangible 'click!' that happens inside your head and at the end of your fingers when everything just works. Only a designer can do that.

This is why I keep going back to bedroom coding. These guys were fucking about until they had that 'feel' about something. The story, the concept even, could come later. Finding the appeal was the first thing.

But a place where writers, creating scenarios and plotting events, and conceptualising set-pieces and character possibilities and game formats could co-exist with designers who have free reign to mess around and bring something new that just 'feels' right or good or fun or different, could be something quite special, if a sense of authorship could be retained.

People coming from different directions, respecting each others input and ideas, and brining them together to see what works.

R.

[Guardian]

i've no programming ability or artistic creativity, but i've always dreamed of helping a game project in a design or production (as in producer, not manufacturer/distrubuter) role. i never seriously considered trying to get myself into such a project, though.

[Ed-E]

That's a great point, John.

It's not about the scenario. Because any of us can go...okay, here's a great story for a game, blah blah blah. Here's a great idea for a platform game, blah, blah, blah. A writer, for example, can never express through words the 'feel' of a great game. The intangible 'click!' that happens inside your head and at the end of your fingers when everything just works. Only a designer can do that.

This is why I keep going back to bedroom coding. These guys were fucking about until they had that 'feel' about something. The story, the concept even, could come later. Finding the appeal was the first thing.

But a place where writers, creating scenarios and plotting events, and conceptualising set-pieces and character possibilities and game formats could co-exist with designers who have free reign to mess around and bring something new that just 'feels' right or good or fun or different, could be something quite special, if a sense of authorship could be retained.

People coming from different directions, respecting each others input and ideas, and brining them together to see what works.

R.

I think it would be wonderful. I just honestly don't think that those countless developers that can't make the games they want to make are going to go "yeah, let's let these guys have all the fun".

Not with the industry as it is at the moment, anyway.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

But a place where writers, creating scenarios and plotting events, and conceptualising set-pieces and character possibilities and game formats could co-exist with designers

I totally agree. That's why I invited Biffo to work on Pillage. And I found the experience of collaborating with a proper writer extremely rewarding and informative. It's only a shame we didn't have the dev budget to really do his brilliant script justice.

[Preacher]

Nobody will buy a game design doc.  Every developer has a zillion ideas already.  Unfortunately nobody will fund the development of anything interesting.

The fact you've indicated that publishers want nothing to do with innovative concepts suggests the need for auteurs and independent game makers in this industry is crucial, regardless of their lack of m4d skillz.

That touches on one of my frustrations as a game designer.  Everyone thinks they can do it; so there is almost zero respect for game design as a skill\craft\art (whatever it is).

Of course I see where you're coming from, and yes, people don't really appreciate the work that goes into the product or media they're moaning about, but I seriously doubt that games designers are alone with this. Anyone who's been to see a crap film and thinks they could've done better isn't taking into account the hard work of the hundreds of people involved with the movie. It's the nature of the entertainment industry, where the final product is judged just as that, and the people responsible for it are barely factored in.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Of course I see where you're coming from, and yes, people don't really appreciate the work that goes into the product or media they're moaning about, but I seriously doubt that games designers are alone with this.

Perhaps, I only really know games.

But people make a living from designing buildings, clothes, furniture, shoes, sunglasses; and of course writing songs and screenplays. There really isn't the equivalent in games. There is no value associated with game design.

I've been a game designer for 20 years but I've never been able to make a living from it. I've had to be a programmer or a producer or co-run my own company (and even then do a LOT of other stuff). The game design stuff has pretty much always been slipped in as an unpaid* for extra.

There are a lot of people with 'Game Designer' as their job title nowadays but they are really level designers which is a totally different thing.

*Actually back in '85\86 I got paid 500 quid each for a few game designs (including Feud).

[tiedtiger]

Is there any potential in an independent games company that performs the same kind of function? In a way, you would be interacting with top-level development, because you might be supplying concepts for certain developers, or even people who can perform certain roles. In the meantime, you have a group of creatives who are constantly devising new ideas for the emergent platforms, and you're also supporting individuals who want to code projects for retro machines.

It sounds good on paper to be able to produce a fully formed design document and show materials and sell the format etc, but in practise, the vast majority of people in the industry don't read these documents, and those that do merely glance at them and not really know what to do with them.

I was thinking of a similar thing a while ago. The thing is that you'd need a receptive structure from the larger companies like publishers and developers, an dthat receptive community doesn't exist. Most publishers vet ideas all the good long day, and the first thing that they always do is look for the quality of the demo. This places the onus on the developer to put together a demo in the first place, which is a many-months and very-expensive task.

Ultimately, the industry itself is simply not mature enough.

[Preacher]

My apologies if my initial rambling offended the development process, it was purely unintentional. I suppose what I'm getting at is that the scenario can be crux of a whole new system of interaction.

Take Metal Gear solid. Before then, the emphasis on stealth had never been so prominent in a game, yet you could argue that the scenario (secret agent type dude not wanting to get caught) influenced the interactive portion of the game (no jokes about a lack of interaction with MGS please )

For me, the scenario leaps out at me before the controls, interactive portion and other stuff do. Half Life, for example, really impressed me because of the way the scenario unfolded, the way the plot unravelled around you and the actions you took. Similarly, Shenmue did the same, as the concept of avenging your father whilst trying to lead a normal(ish) life struck me as being a far more balanced approach at interactive story telling.

Of course, you could argue that it's the other way around: interactive content gives birth to settings,mscenarios and characters, but I wouldn't like to assume either way. All I know is, if for some reason I was given the chance to make a game, the scenario is where I would start.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

To be honest I don't thing game design documents are any use to anyone. No matter who writes them.

Game design is an interactive process. A short concept document can be useful, and a lot of stuff NEEDs documenting during the dev period. But if the game is only remotely original you'll only be able to write the doc when it's finished. And then of course it's a bit late.

[tiedtiger]

Ignoring the retro bit for a minute, yes, there are companies that do this sort of thing... or at least, I'm pretty sure they do. It's becoming fashionable - or rather just better sense, I don't know - to outsource different aspects of the production process so it's not inconcievable that 'design' is one of those. The only such group I know of is International Hobo, which is the company the semi-famous (in the games industry anyway) Ernest Adams works for. They do the full design work including bits that may not always be seen as strictly 'design' areas (level design, for instance, and writing/scripting).

Not those idiots.

Ihobo is essentially a flophouse of academy types and self-styled experts (like Adams) most of whom have precisely zero real experience in design (like Adams) but plenty of big ideas that sound like they make sense.

What they actually do is produce reams of witless documentation and design material of the sort that no-one really needs. And then they charge a fortune for it.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Of course, you could argue that it's the other way around: interactive content gives birth to settings,mscenarios and characters, but I wouldn't like to assume either way. All I know is, if for some reason I was given the chance to make a game, the scenario is where I would start.

I think it can happen both ways. Or the two things can feed off each other. But the point remains; a scenario is not a game idea.

Your scenario is perfectly valid as a starting point; and perhaps you meant it that way. But you would not believe the number of times a story has been presented to me as a game idea.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Not those idiots.

Ihobo is essentially a flophouse of academy types and self-styled experts (like Adams) most of whom have precisely zero real experience in design (like Adams) but plenty of big ideas that sound like they make sense.

What they actually do is produce reams of witless documentation and design material of the sort that no-one really needs. And then they charge a fortune for it.

How do they keep going? Are they rich or is someone actually paying them?

[tiedtiger]

I was talking to Trip Hawkins a bit ago, and he was saying that the worst thing ever to happen to the industry was the reluctance of publishers and developers to support auteurs. No-one wants to address authorship of concept anymore.

R.

That's because auteurs create problems for publishers who want to work within the renewable franchise model. They all want to create repeat product, but they don't want to make the creators of those products too famous because to do so invites PR disaster. If Will Wright decided that Sims 2 was shit and made a stink about it in the press, EA would shit themselves.

Personally, I agree with Trip. Business-wise, I can see why a publisher would think that way though.

[Salsa Party Animal]

Tony Mott could help by making Edge issue on Bedroom Development in the future.

[Guardian]

I would do if I were dedicated enough. I even have a copy of blitz knocking about here somewhere. But I'm not really that interested in games as a whole, and more interested in doing things with writing.

that's how i feel. i'd rather sit on my stool and reveal to you little programmers all the piffling philosophical weaknesses of your coded argument that could bring the whole structure to a gameplay crash. you need me, damnit.

[tiedtiger]

How do they keep going? Are they rich or is someone actually paying them?

By being high-profile gamasutra types who write books about game design that make them seem important, which attracts people to them.

Or something like that. They're not very big (2/3 regular guys and some freelancers, I think)

[tiedtiger]

that's how i feel. i'd rather sit on my stool and reveal to you little programmers all the piffling philosophical weaknesses of your coded argument that could bring the whole structure to a gameplay crash. you need me, damnit.

Well my deal is that I'm interested in writing (scripts, characters, that sort of thing) but I have a fair bit of design experience of the board- and table rpg variety which helps a lot in videogame design. You'd be amazed how many 'designers' in the industry don't really understand things like simple-but-complex elemental structure, or what makes gameplay as opposed to frustrateplay.

Then again, I've not had any major success so far, so what do I know?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

By being high-profile gamasutra types who write books about game design that make them seem important, which attracts people to them.

Or something like that. They're not very big (2/3 regular guys and some freelancers, I think)

Yes I know the main bloke slightly.

When we set up Z2 we had the idea of producing designs for hire but there seemed little interest. That said we aren't really the gamasutra\article writing types.

[Guardian]

You'd be surprised how many 'designers' in the industry don't really understand what makes gameplay as opposed to frustrateplay.

lol, no i wouldn't.