controversial opinions on music

[Quest]

Napalm Death aren't exactly from Birmingham either, but London is always claiming bands from the surrounding area so I think we can allow it.

[SaintAnselm]

Hull’s great at producing backing bands, Bowie’s Spiders From Mars were from here and all the members of Sade - who were not named Sade, are also from this city.

 

 

[Sardan]

16 minutes ago, SaintAnselm said:

Hull’s great at producing backing bands, Bowie’s Spiders From Mars were from here and all the members of Sade - who were not named Sade, are also from this city.

Sweetback

[Ste_S]

On 25/04/2021 at 17:31, englishbob said:

Some great bands in there, don't come anywhere near the big hitters from the UK though.

 

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the US black originators that the UK artists essentially ripped off, and then sold the blues and rock and roll back to the US in a white friendly package.

 

I'd rather have Bo Diddley, Howlin' Wolf, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc etc than the Beatles or the Stones.

 

I'd also argue the Beatles and the Stones (and a lot of other bands from that era) are essentially shit, and it's only boomers continually telling us how great they are for decades that have kept them in the spotlight.

[Stanley]

26 minutes ago, Ste_S said:

 

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the US black originators that the UK artists essentially ripped off, and then sold the blues and rock and roll back to the US in a white friendly package.

 

I'd rather have Bo Diddley, Howlin' Wolf, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc etc than the Beatles or the Stones.

 

I'd also argue the Beatles and the Stones (and a lot of other bands from that era) are essentially shit, and it's only boomers continually telling us how great they are for decades that have kept them in the spotlight.

Yeah, that would be a really pertinent point had The Beatles and The Stones been shit, they’re continually in the spotlight because the music stands the test of time, there are no magical gatekeepers of what is good or bad, just what is popular and what lasts. 
 

I mean Beethoven, fucking shite, it’s just all these fucking romantics and revolutionaries keep harping on about him. 
 

As for selling white rock n roll back to the Americans; Bill Haley, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent etc. and a guy called Elvis Presley? 

[David Kenny]

I'd have to dig it out but there's a great clip of B. B. King talking about how much he owed to the Stones and Cream and the like, for re-introducing white Americans to the Blues. I mean we can call it cultural appropriation, but they didn't do it because they wanted to steal anything, they did it because they loved the music and wanted to play it. Their popularity gave a living to a lot of the great bluesmen, who without them would have worked and died in relative obscurity.

 

It's worth mentioning as well that Cream especially were a really good blues band.

[esar]

To add to Stanleys point, a lot of the black artists in the US that were being ripped off absolutely loved the Beatles and Stones, those British bands would always talk up their influences and it bought their music to a much wider audience. And the influence worked both ways, for example, i'm not sure we would have Whats Going On without the Beatles epic studio albums.

 

edit: Snap!!

[David Kenny]

It's worth listening to this brilliant outtake from the sessions Howling Wolf did with Clapton, Steve Winwood, Bill Wyman and others.

 

 

You can just hear the reverence in Clapton's voice.

 

(This whole session is absolutely amazing and for my money has the best version of I Ain't Superstitious there is. Love those horns!)

 

 

[englishbob]

1 hour ago, Ste_S said:

 

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the US black originators that the UK artists essentially ripped off, and then sold the blues and rock and roll back to the US in a white friendly package.

 

I'd rather have Bo Diddley, Howlin' Wolf, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc etc than the Beatles or the Stones.

 

I'd also argue the Beatles and the Stones (and a lot of other bands from that era) are essentially shit, and it's only boomers continually telling us how great they are for decades that have kept them in the spotlight.

 

It's is your opinion and you are welcome to it, but while I don't want to make assumptions on your ethnicity, I'll direct you a few pages back...

 

 

29 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

I'd have to dig it out but there's a great clip of B. B. King talking about how much he owed to the Stones and Cream and the like, for re-introducing white Americans to the Blues. I mean we can call it cultural appropriation, but they didn't do it because they wanted to steal anything, they did it because they loved the music and wanted to play it. Their popularity gave a living to a lot of the great bluesmen, who without them would have worked and died in relative obscurity.

 

Exactly this.

 

The blanket tossed term of  "cultural appropriation" for a lot of things across different cultures is absolute bullshit. If you take it to its full blown logical conclusion then we are all fucked and would lead very boring, unexciting and ignorant existences. I'm not belittling very valid serious reasons for it, but as a blanket term, and making assumptions on both sides that they want the same thing, nonsense.

[Stanley]

It’s just racist that’s what it is, did Beastie Boys steal culturally from black rappers, or were they just massive fans of Spoonie Gee and Run DMC, not to mention helping LL Cool J get a break. 
 

I can’t stand that term, bugs me.

[Nick R]

49 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

I'd have to dig it out but there's a great clip of B. B. King talking about how much he owed to the Stones and Cream and the like, for re-introducing white Americans to the Blues. I mean we can call it cultural appropriation, but they didn't do it because they wanted to steal anything, they did it because they loved the music and wanted to play it. Their popularity gave a living to a lot of the great bluesmen, who without them would have worked and died in relative obscurity.

 

It's worth mentioning as well that Cream especially were a really good blues band.

 

Led Zeppelin, on the other hand, did have a habit of swiping lyrical and musical ideas from blues songs, in ways that were specific and substantial enough that they should have been credited. (In some cases, like Whole Lotta Love, they've since had their credits changed.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Led_Zeppelin_songs_written_or_inspired_by_others

https://turnmeondeadman.com/led-zeppelin-plagiarism/

[Art Vandelay]

When I said white people make bad music it was just trying to be a provocative statement. The wider and more accurate statement is that lots of credit is given to white artists for revolutionising music and inventing genres and whatnot, and a lot of the time the absolutely crucial involvement of black culture is just missed out entirely. Now, I don't think that's as bad as it used to be, but it's certainly a thing. When Elvis' music is described it's still 'the clean and holy sound of Bluegrass mixed with the gritty low-down Blues' or some such. I mean we can all read between the lines. Look at any mainstream disco documentary and it's glamorous white supermodels at Studio 54, when the actual history was being written by gay black and latino kids a few blocks away. The only songs that charted in the UK in the 90s were sung by scrawny white art school students according to accepted history. None of that is artists ripping anyone off, it's the history of music through a predominantly white perspective.

 

Cultural appropriation in music is a ridiculous concept for the most part. McCartney was never shy about saying James Lee Jamerson was influential to him, Jagger has spent his whole life telling anyone who'll listen about his love for black music. If you don't hide your sources I really don't see a problem. Save the term for people who wear daishikis to Latitude. I think the wider issue is why white people singing the same songs tended to become much bigger acts, but I don't think we're going to solve that in here.

[Stanley]

Well it’s a very deep subject that didn’t just start with rock n roll, and let’s be honest all modern music be it pop, rock, hip hop, jazz etc. All has its origins in black music and culture. It is why the mobo awards never made any sense to me; music of black origin, so all of it then 
 

But yeah, calling The Beatles & Stones shit for ripping off black music is probably the dumbest, sorry most controversial, thing I’ve read here. 

[Festoon]

Personally I don't give a shit what the white artists did as long as:

 

A) They gave money to the person they were ripping off/paying homage to.

B) They didn't have the gall to sue people for sampling their work that borrowed so heavily.

 

Led Zep I believe did not smdo the former (boo) but also never sued anyone for sampling them.

[Ste_S]

On 29/04/2021 at 18:01, Art Vandelay said:

When I said white people make bad music it was just trying to be a provocative statement. The wider and more accurate statement is that lots of credit is given to white artists for revolutionising music and inventing genres and whatnot, and a lot of the time the absolutely crucial involvement of black culture is just missed out entirely.

 

Absolutely. My post came about because a poster was claiming that the UK had all the bands, whereas the US didn't; whilst ignoring all the black US acts that heavily inspired the UK bands in the first place.

[Stanley]

I love The Beatles and their influence on popular music and culture is clear to see, but I find it offensive that anyone would consider them (or Zeppelin, Floyd etc.) better, or more important, or whatever, than Funkadelic. I mean, have you listened to Funkadelic? And that’s just one act, it baffles me that anyone could be so dismissive of all the US acts. 

[acidbearboy]

I read that original post to imply that the UK had the biggest bands, i.e. the most famous and most popular, which I found hard to argue with. I think if you asked anybody to name the biggest bands of the 60s/70s/80s, regardless of their age or tastes, they would probably mention The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zep, Pink Floyd or Queen. Most people haven’t heard of Funkadelic. 

[ZOK]

Yes, that’s how I read it too.

 

For some reason everyone then decided to interpret it as ‘there are no good US bands’.

[Fierce Poodle]

He said “the big guns”, “the musical giants” which I suppose is a little open to interpretation, but to me it just meant those who achieved exceptional levels of fame and popularity across the world.

[Stanley]

1 hour ago, acidbearboy said:

I read that original post to imply that the UK had the biggest bands, i.e. the most famous and most popular, which I found hard to argue with. I think if you asked anybody to name the biggest bands of the 60s/70s/80s, regardless of their age or tastes, they would probably mention The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zep, Pink Floyd or Queen. Most people haven’t heard of Funkadelic. 

Most people can fuck off, who cares about their opinions anyway. Also Led Zep were dire. 

[Fierce Poodle]

Now you’re just being silly.

[Stanley]

Well it’s the controversial opinions thread, isn’t it? But Led Zep were fucking awful, I hate their sound, particularly Robert Plants caterwauling, the preening fucking poodle haired prick. 
 

There’s only one place for Led Zeppelin, and that’s on a Jeremy Clarkson mixtape. 

[SaintAnselm]

25 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Well it’s the controversial opinions thread, isn’t it? But Led Zep were fucking awful, I hate their sound, particularly Robert Plants caterwauling, the preening fucking poodle haired prick. 
 

There’s only one place for Led Zeppelin, and that’s on a Jeremy Clarkson mixtape. 

Hell yes, Robert Plant was fucking terrible.

[Stanley]

Also, getting serious for a moment now, let’s not ignore the horrible toxic environment created by them and their crew, they’re in the same boat as Marilyn Manson as far as I’m concerned, vile creatures. 

[Fierce Poodle]

I’d be more with you if you’d said the Doors. Jim Morrison was not only a preening prick but a pretentious one, who for some godforsaken reason thought he was a great poet, maaaann. Ooh look at me, having a wank on stage aren’t I controversial? No, you’re a stupid, washed up druggie who can’t sing for shit. Now fuck off.

[Quest]

Does anyone actually listen to The Doors? It seems unimaginable that anyone would actually subject themselves to such a thing.

[Fierce Poodle]

God yes, there’s loads of the pretentious dickheads still around.

[Stanley]

7 minutes ago, Fierce Poodle said:

I’d be more with you if you’d said the Doors. Jim Morrison was not only a preening prick but a pretentious one, who for some godforsaken reason thought he was a great poet, maaaann. Ooh look at me, having a wank on stage aren’t I controversial? No, you’re a stupid, washed up druggie who can’t sing for toffee. Now fuck off.

Jesus yes, can’t stand Morrison, although I’m partial to a few Doors songs I must admit, he was a prime fucking member though. I remember going to see The Doors movie with all my art student friends and cringing all the way through it. Thank fuck that era is dead and buried just about. 

[englishbob]

I had very little experience of The Doors until I saw the Oliver Stone film which bought into the whole Morrison thought he was special ethos, and it was fucking awful and hilariously bad.

 

I'd heard through others my worst enemy in the world (from school) loves The Doors, therefore that proves that wankers listen to The Doors.

 

(Although its hard to think of Apocalypse Now without The End)

[Festoon]

Mike Oldfield is bizarre, but he's genuinely got a unique sound and oddness to his music that stems from him being a very odd, and seemingly very naive, man, that means he should be revered more highly that he is. I've a feeling that, after he dies, there'll be a lot of rediscovery of his music.

 

It's almost like outsider art, but from a man that's so outside of any particular musical style of any time that he never really fit anywhere at any time, so that releases of his were always poorly reviewed because they didn't fit into the genres about of the time when he put out a particular release, so lazily got thrown into New Age or Prog.

 

Of particular note is the original Tubular Bells, of course, but also Ommadawn, but worth noting is the sheer weirdness of him being pressured by Virgin to do Tubular Bells II and instead doing, effectively, Ommadawn II, or Amarok, instead - which is a fascinatingly weird, angry, restless album (with the most uplifting ending imaginable with a Zulu choir) - what with it's morse code messages telling Richard Branson to fuck off, sudden volume changes, challenging "Happy?" repetition for Virgin execs, an, of course, a Margaret Thatcher impersonator delivering a positive message which sounds weirder, edgier and cleverer than any Ben Elton-esque "fuck Ms. Thatch" diatribe. I know nothing about guitars but to my ears he sounds like a pretty amazing guitarist and bassist here.

 

And of course, then he left Virgin, signed to Warner and immediately made Tubular Bells II, which is pretty funny.