The Watchtower - A thread for all comics

[Mr Spew]

Didn't know such a topic like this existed...

I've read all the Preacher - great series, definitely one people should get.

And am a fan of The Walking Dead. Great early-starting series! Got the first TPB and issues from 4 or 5 to number 13 or 14. Whichever came out last month anyway. Rather good.

The new artist is from Shrewsbury too (near to where I live, used to work there), which is pretty odd.

[Exit Chamber]

Well, i picked up Samurai Executioner Vol 1, and it is brilliant. Gonna have to go get number two soon as.

[Beekeeper]

Got Watchmen. It's shite.

Got Maus. It's great.

[sandman]

Got Watchmen. It's shite.

Got Maus. It's great.

Why do you think Watchmen is shite? I'm interested to hear your views.

IMHO, the Rorscach issue is the best single comic ever written.

[Uncle Mike]

I didn't like Maus much.

[SeanR]

I didn't like Maus much.

I liked Maus, and Maus II

[Treble]

Didn't know such a topic like this existed...

I've read all the Preacher - great series, definitely one people should get.

And am a fan of The Walking Dead. Great early-starting series! Got the first TPB and issues from 4 or 5 to number 13 or 14. Whichever came out last month anyway. Rather good.

The new artist is from Shrewsbury too (near to where I live, used to work there), which is pretty odd.

Just got the first two TPBs myself. The artist from the second run (Charlie Adlard) doesn't lend himself as well to b&w as the first artist (Tony Moore) though, in my opinion. He grew on me, but re-reading the first, the dip in quality is noticable. Again, imo

Anyway, i'll be getting it on a regular basis now. Fantastic stuff, really character-driven.

[Djx]

DC:

Green Lantern:Rebirth is the reason I love comics. It's just amazing. Geoff Johns' writing just gets better and better with each issue AND that whole Parallax backstory makes sense. Truly an exceptional writer.

Action Comics #824 was an impressive Superman comic, which had some standout moments.

Click For Spoiler

Supes stops some attacking humans by using heat vision to pierce their kneecaps. It's what he terms ''A page from the Art of Violence by Bruce Wayne''

Marvel:

Ultimate X-men is getting better and better.

Ultimate Spiderman is fun but always so wordy.

Burlyman Comics:

Doc Frankenstein is a comic that drew me in and kept me hooked. I'll recommend this to anyone looking for something unique. Biggest surprise was that the Wachowskis CAN write a gripping and well-composed tale without going over the top.

Picked this up on the recommendations of these guys, who also know their comics quite well.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18960#9

[Don Rosco]

Burlyman Comics:

Doc Frankenstein is a comic that drew me in and kept me hooked. I'll recommend this to anyone looking for something unique. Biggest surprise was that the Wachowskis CAN write a gripping and well-composed tale without going over the top. 

I picked up the first one of these and Shaolin Cowboy, I liked them both. Have either gone past the first issue yet? I haven't seen them in my local but that doesn't mean they didn't come out.. missed part 2 of 303 as well. Bloody raging I am. Damned comic distributors!!

[Beekeeper]

Why do you think Watchmen is shite? I'm interested to hear your views.

IMHO, the Rorscach issue is the best single comic ever written.

Because I got it expecting something like the Sandman series, but it's just like reading a bloody spiderman comic. The colours are too garish and the cast seems to be entirely composed of characters that

a) aren't believable

B) if they did exist, you'd just want to whack them round the head with doctor manhattan's fat ass.

And the written sections are mind-blowingly tedious.

Also, the total lack of humour.

Of course, I only read the first 30 pages, before going back to Preludes and Nocturnes and wondering "Are these really on the same medium?".

[TheShend]

Well, i picked up Samurai Executioner Vol 1, and it is brilliant. Gonna have to go get number two soon as.

Excellent stuff!

Loved the monk story

You read the Lone Wolf & Cub books at all?

[TheShend]

No humour in Watchmen??

Did you even get to the end of the 1st chapter?

[Tofu]

No humour in Watchmen??

Did you even get to the end of the 1st chapter?

not enough tits and ass for me sadly.

[DUKENUKEM2UK]

does any one know any good uk sites to get graphic novels form has

amazon does not take my visa electron card

has i realy need some new novels

[TheShend]

The tits and ass come later man!

[TheShend]

Double post!!

[Andy_Why]

Of course, I only read the first 30 pages, before going back to Preludes and Nocturnes and wondering "Are these really on the same medium?".

You are really doing yourself a disservice by only reading 30 pages of Watchmen. It needs to be seen as a whole to be enjoyed. Sandman is good, but Watchmen is so much better its crazy. Give it another try.

[Rowan Morrison]

And the written sections are mind-blowingly tedious.

But you like The Sandman? It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.

I reread Watchmen the other week. It's not the all-conquering masterpiece I thought it was back in the 80s, but it's at least a technical marvel, and it's easy to forget how much it changed mainstream comics. Coming to it after being exposed to a generation of comics that came in its wake can't help its case, but I think it still stands as one of the best mainstream comics ever produced.

Maus is a great work, but I don't feel it's a great comic. Spiegelman can do great comics, but in Maus he's really concerned with the narrative and doesn't do anything really interesting with the art. You can see this when Prisoner on Hell Planet appears. That's fine, of course; the narrative is what Maus is all about. I would say that Maus is far and away a better story than Watchmen, but Watchmen is a better piece of graphic art than Maus. Assuming someone was asking me to compare them...

[Treble]

Isn't it bizzare? I thought Watchmen was totally beyond rebuke or criticism, but someone has. Mad world? Agreed.

One thing you left out (or didn't emphasise) in your argument, Rowan, is that Watchmen's art uses the conventions of Golden-age comic art to subvert comics. To tell a tale that pretty much shits on the 'muscled guys in suits' image of comics, it does so by 'speaking' to the reader in the same medium.

[Beekeeper]

I reread Watchmen the other week. It's not the all-conquering masterpiece I thought it was back in the 80s, but it's at least a technical marvel, and it's easy to forget how much it changed mainstream comics. Coming to it after being exposed to a generation of comics that came in its wake can't help its case, but I think it still stands as one of the best mainstream comics ever produced.

I think that may be the problem. I don't like comics. Sandman was more a "graphic novel" than a comic book. No bright colours and men with capes. I'd never in a million years buy comic books with super heroes in them.

But still, I really don't have the effort to concentrate on the book at the minute- too busy reading Maus. I just made a half-assed attempt to get into it, got through about 30 pages, thought "meh", saw Dr. Manhattan, who I despise with the fiery intensity of million burning suns, despite never actually hearing about him before I read Watchmen, checked on to see if there was any tits, didn't see any, then when back to Maus.

[Rowan Morrison]

Isn't it bizzare? I thought Watchmen was totally beyond rebuke or criticism, but someone has. Mad world? Agreed.

It's nowhere near beyond criticism. There are far better comics. Watchmen is very, very good, but it's not perfect by any means. Read the section where Dr. Manhattan's father throws his watch into the street; it's actually pretty bad. Manhattan's purple prose is painful at times, the same problem that affected the later Miracleman stories. Then again, Watchmen at its best had yet to be bettered in the mainstream.

But at the time Watchmen was being published, and well before, there were better comics out there - just not from Marvel or DC. And I don't think Watchmen subverts comics, or even superhero comics, at all - I think it celebrates them, even as it adds another dimension - a level of 'realistic' human drama and psychology. This is just a (sizable) step beyond the developments 60s Marvel titles introduced. Burce Wayne > Peter Parker > Dan Dreiberg.

It should be enjoyed and studied (there are copies in the college bookshop), but not lionized. Love and Rockets storeis of the same era knock it into a cocked hat. I mean, I love Watchmen, I really do, but the idea that it's beyond rebuke... disturbs me.

[Nick R]

Is Daredevil:Man without Fear by Frank Miller/John Romita Jr.  a good read 

cheers Vemsie 

It's good, but not as great as Frank Miller's brilliant "Born Again" storyline. His original run on the title in the early 80s (the "Elektra saga", collected in Visionaries 1-3) is also very good.

This site has good recommendations on which Daredevil stories to read and in which order:

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/ddRECOMMENDED.shtml

Personally I went from Miller's original run, to Born Again, then straight to the volume 2 stories. Of those, David Mack and Joe Quesada's "Parts of A Hole" is possibly my favourite, although nearly all of Bendis's issues have been excellent, too.

[Rowan Morrison]

Born Again is an excellent read. I may just prefer it to Dark Knight. Its Captain America is wonderfully done, and nothing should make me want to write those words. It's just a crime/superhero story, nothing pomo or revisionist, but POW, it hits hard, and fast.

[Don Rosco]

I mean, I love Watchmen, I really do, but the idea that it's beyond rebuke... disturbs me.

I hear you - I love it to death but it doesn't quite tie up as a story for me because of the ending, and the colouring is fairly shocking. It's utterly compulsive, I think, mainly because it's nearly faultless technically. There's so many little devices and storylines and great characters and fantastic ideas in the frames. I keep thinking about the Newspaper guy and the little kid reading the seafarer's story. Just brilliant...

[Treble]

It's nowhere near beyond criticism. There are far better comics. Watchmen is very, very good, but it's not perfect by any means. Read the section where Dr. Manhattan's father throws his watch into the street; it's actually pretty bad. Manhattan's purple prose is painful at times, the same problem that affected the later Miracleman stories. Then again, Watchmen at its best had yet to be bettered in the mainstream.

But at the time Watchmen was being published, and well before, there were better comics out there - just not from Marvel or DC. And I don't think Watchmen subverts comics, or even superhero comics, at all - I think it celebrates them, even as it adds another dimension - a level of 'realistic' human drama and psychology. This is just a (sizable) step beyond the developments 60s Marvel titles introduced. Burce Wayne > Peter Parker > Dan Dreiberg.

It should be enjoyed and studied (there are copies in the college bookshop), but not lionized. Love and Rockets storeis of the same era knock it into a cocked hat. I mean, I love Watchmen, I really do, but the idea that it's beyond rebuke... disturbs me.

Well, I meant contextually. For what is tries to do (and succeeds in doing), it does to extremely good effect.

Donrosco: the colouring, I feel, is deliberate. This is deliberately not meant to look like Liquid! did it, and is meant to look pulp/EC. See my above argument

Moving-on, what do people think of Dark Knight 2? Obviously it's nowhere near as good as Dark Knight Returns, but does it stand up on its own as a decent story...?

[Space Renegade Ulala]

I found DK2 dreadful. That said, I revisited the original a few years back and was surprised how poor it now reads. It's dated horribly and doesn't quite work for me anymore. Very much of its time, unlike Miller's other noted work on the character, Year One which is brilliant and timeless. I guess that's always the risk of setting things in the future...

Comic panel of the week:

Frank Castle, trapped in a nuclear silo in Siberia, trying to get a little girl to safety, sends a message to Moscow...

'[if anyone tries to stop me] I will burn Russia off the face of the planet.'

Ennis' Punisher is very much my guilty pleasure. He's written it as a series of pure crime/war/vengeance stories as opposed to the traditional version of the character, poncing around with team-ups every other week. It's one note yet strangely satisfying.

[Treble]

Well, both Watchmen and DKR are Reagan-era, terrified-of-THE-BOMB novels, very much of their time. I really like Miller's use of language in DKR, and Bat's internal monologue is still ripped-off to this day in the Batman series I currently read (Detective Comics). I don't think those two elements have aged.

The 'future scenario' thing always says more about the period something was written in than any likely future, though, you're right.

[phreak]

Sorry if this has been posted already but has anyone else got into Aria? Not bad comic but the issues are few and far between.

Also have they released any new Lady pendragon? I used to get them but then they just stopped sending them a while back.

[Vemsie]

I found DK2 dreadful. That said, I revisited the original a few years back and was surprised how poor it now reads. It's dated horribly and doesn't quite work for me anymore. Very much of its time, unlike Miller's other noted work on the character, Year One which is brilliant and timeless. I guess that's always the risk of setting things in the future...

Agreed. It's still satisfying to see him kick the living shit out of Superman though.

[Treble]

I dunno, I think some of you are a bit too harsh. It's not meant to be Proust, after all

DK2 is ok, just missed the boat a bit. Has some great ideas and nice dialogue in it, to be fair. Artwork is good, although the lack of detail compared to the original (I understand why Miller wanted a different palette from Varley, but not why he wanted less detailing) is a drawback.