Kotor 2

[a big boy]

That ending sounds amazing. Seriously, this shit is golden. What the hell happens in the final one?

Anyway, after another bug has crippled another of my save files: Nar Shadda is now impossible to complete after I didn't get the scripted response from Atton after dealing with the slavers on the Ebon Hawk. Another wasted 15 hours. You really couldn't make it up. I'm well tempted to pirate the PC version, patch it up (I assume the PC verison actually has a patch) and download someone elses' save files. It's really Obsidian's/Lucas Arts'/Microsft's fault that I have to do this, so no dark side points gained, eh?

And what do you think the chances are that someone will write a mod for the proper ending, anyone?

[Matt Defis]

No patch for the PC version yet but 1 is on the way apparently.

[Andy_Tanner]

i can't believe that this has fallen from being my most anticipated game of the year to me not even getting around to buying it yet. i don't know if it's the bugs, the luke warm press response or maybe just too many quality games all at once.

is Edge's 7 fair considering they gave the original 9, bugs n all?

[a big boy]

CRISES AVERTED!

If by chance anyone else is struggling on Nar Shadda seemingly with nothing to do, contrary to what Gamespot's guide would have you believe, you DO have to pay the little bear in the entertainment thingy to let the Exchange know you hate them, cos that's what I did and immediatly Visquis was ringing me up for a date (you'd have thought assasinating their leader and killing half their refugess would be enough to get their attention, but hey).

The game is now great again. The bugs are shocking but to be fair I've not hard anyone have as bad a time as me with them and I think it's testament to the game's brilliance that it's made me persist throught them. And it *has* been worth it. So 8/10 at least from me, and if you can get the PC version and they release a patch to sort out all the bugs (as I believe they did with the original), 9/10 because it is a big step up from the original in practically every way (or does that make it a revolutionary 10/10? Nah, the graphics will still be shit). Then again, I'm yet to experience the "real" ending...

[Steven]

i can't believe that this has fallen from being my most anticipated game of the year to me not even getting around to buying it yet. i don't know if it's the bugs, the luke warm press response or maybe just too many quality games all at once.

is Edge's 7 fair considering they gave the original 9, bugs n all?

I think it's actually better than the first one, TBH. It'd been sitting untouched since before Xmas, as all the flak had put me off a bit. Glad I booted it up.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

That ending sounds amazing. Seriously, this shit is golden. What the hell happens in the final one?

Anyway, after another bug has crippled another of my save files: Nar Shadda is now impossible to complete after I didn't get the scripted response from Atton after dealing with the slavers on the Ebon Hawk. Another wasted 15 hours. You really couldn't make it up. I'm well tempted to pirate the PC version, patch it up (I assume the PC verison actually has a patch) and download someone elses' save files. It's really Obsidian's/Lucas Arts'/Microsft's fault that I have to do this, so no dark side points gained, eh?

And what do you think the chances are that someone will write a mod for the proper ending, anyone?

Actually, that clip is still in the game, you just need lots of influence with him (which in his case will cost you a fair few DSPs) for him to say it.

Cutting '47 scenes should carry a mandatory 5yr sentence.

I'm just about to do the dual missions bit again...now who should I pick to lead the B-team? Atton? Mandalore would be good, I suppose but he's somewhat limited. In any case, '47 is coming with me to the Palace as I've found a rifle upgrade that makes his repeating heavy blaster do up to 55pts(!) a shot.

Re. Goto and the rubbish GO-T0 droid he gives you - I can't believe I didn't twig that...

Click For Spoiler

..he is the frickin' droid. Apparently, he's the missing intelligence droid the Ithorians mention when you first get to Citadel Station, gone rogue and into business for himself. So. Bloody. Obvious. Dammit.

Must be slipping in my old age. Still, I never used him or talked to him so that's my excuse.

[Roblet]

For me, it's a 7 through and through: long stretches of spellbinding brilliance offset by turbulent patches of shocking rubbishness. The original may not have been the most solid piece of software ever, but it didn't break with anything like as much frequency as its sequel does. Playing KOTOR II is all too often like walking on eggshells: you can never be really sure when you're going to do something it doesn't quite like and be forced to reload an old save. It's striking that one of the loading screen tips explicitly advises the player to "save often, and in different slots": this seems to me to be a tacit admission that the game is barely finished and prone to going totally batshit on you at any time. The original may not have had quite the same quality of scripting / acting as TSL, but at the same time its pacing was far better, and it maintained the quality all the way through; TSL on the other hand has a slightly pedestrian opening section, and a tragically limp final act.

When it gets really good though, it probably surpasses the best moments of KOTOR I. I'm looking forward to seeing what Obsidian can do when they're actually allowed to develop the game they want to, rather than being impeded/rushed by Lucasarts.

Anyway. HK did those impressions for me last night - top stuff! Also, i was thinking: wouldn't it be great for KOTOR 3 to have some Fable-style avatar customisation? I'm finding myself kind of missing the depth of hero-customisation Fable had. Sure it's fun kitting my dark Jedi out in robes and a red lightsaber, but it's not enough to satisfy my playing-Barbie-with-evil-Sith-lords cravings. Just think: by the time you got to the end of the game, your character could be just as imposing and individual-looking as Malak, Sion or Nihilus.

[Steven]

For me, it's a 7 through and through:  long stretches of spellbinding brilliance offset by turbulent patches of shocking rubbishness.  The original may not have been the most solid piece of software ever, but it didn't break with anything like as much frequency as its sequel does.  Playing KOTOR II is all too often like walking on eggshells:  you can never be really sure when you're going to do something it doesn't quite like and be forced to reload an old save.  It's striking that one of the loading screen tips explicitly advises the player to "save often, and in different slots":  this seems to me to be a tacit admission that the game is barely finished and prone to going totally batshit on you at any time.  The original may not have had quite the same quality of scripting / acting as TSL, but at the same time its pacing was far better, and it maintained the quality all the way through; TSL on the other hand has a slightly pedestrian opening section, and a tragically limp final act. 

When it gets really good though, it probably surpasses the best moments of  KOTOR I.  I'm looking forward to seeing what Obsidian can do when they're actually allowed to develop the game they want to, rather than being impeded/rushed by Lucasarts. 

Anyway.  HK did those impressions for me last night - top stuff!  Also, i was thinking: wouldn't it be great for KOTOR 3 to have some Fable-style avatar customisation?  I'm finding myself kind of missing the depth of hero-customisation Fable had.  Sure it's fun kitting my dark Jedi out in robes and a red lightsaber, but it's not enough to satisfy my playing-Barbie-with-evil-Sith-lords cravings.  Just think: by the time you got to the end of the game, your character could be just as imposing and individual-looking as Malak, Sion or Nihilus.

I reckon I'm almost done with it and I haven't had a minute of trouble so far....absolutely no different to the first, glitch-wise.

[Taurus]

Another thing that's slightly annoying is the way the dialogue trees don't react to in-game events (so even though I've defended a base, I'm still given the option to ask nearby NPCs to help me defend the base). And the party member dialogue trees could easily be better organised, by grouping together the conversations that you've exhausted under a 'can I talk to you about something we've already discussed' option.

[a big boy]

Another thing that's slightly annoying is the way the dialogue trees don't react to in-game events (so even though I've defended a base, I'm still given the option to ask nearby NPCs to help me defend the base). And the party member dialogue trees could easily be better organised, by grouping together the conversations that you've exhausted under a 'can I talk to you about something we've already discussed' option.

True. It's hard not to think of "what might have been" with just a few months extra development (especially when it took those extra few months to come out in Europe anyway), but to be fair that's only because what might have been would actually be both the greatest RPG and realisation of the Star Wars universe ever. You see the flaws deepest in those things you love the most, etc.

Click For Spoiler

I've just revisted Telos after going back to the rebuilt Dantooine and I've been pissing myself with excitement. There's a real feeling that all these events I've been spending hours trawling though are untiting into one glorious whole and not only that but had I played through differently (ie killing all the Jedi instead of trying to unite them and actually bothering to get the power for Telos) the storyline could be very different. Even if it's not, it's the feeling, man.

And not just that, I'm now so unbelievably chuffed with my party of choice it's scary. I've got the Disciple specialising in staright up combat, Mira's the tech specialist (the Bao-Dur bug still won't let me talk to him properly) and my character's just insane with force powers. The fact that they're all maxed out light side Jedi just cos I taught them to be as well is definitley the cream on the cake, or whatever.

When they do KOTORIII they *need* to not only make sure that it is completely sorted, but that it comes optionally bundled with "Special Edition" versions of these two cos it would make an incredible Trilogy. Then they need to lose it and release a trilogy of over-budget shitty prequels just to show Locas who's boss.

[a big boy]

Actually, that clip is still in the game, you just need lots of influence with him (which in his case will cost you a fair few DSPs) for him to say it.

Cutting '47 scenes should carry a mandatory 5yr sentence.

I'm just about to do the dual missions bit again...now who should I pick to lead the B-team? Atton? Mandalore would be good, I suppose but he's somewhat limited. In any case, '47 is coming with me to the Palace as I've found a rifle upgrade that makes his repeating heavy blaster do up to 55pts(!) a shot.

Re. Goto and the rubbish GO-T0 droid he gives you - I can't believe I didn't twig that...

Click For Spoiler

..he is the frickin' droid. Apparently, he's the missing intelligence droid the Ithorians mention when you first get to Citadel Station, gone rogue and into business for himself. So. Bloody. Obvious. Dammit.

Must be slipping in my old age. Still, I never used him or talked to him so that's my excuse.

Man, to tell you the truth, I haven't even fixed HK yet. And it's eating up inside. I think I just need the processor and then he's done. Can you remember where to get it? Also, please don't tell me my lightside alignment will affect his. I love the evil little cunt.

[Warszawa]

Perhaps I simply haven't been able to get into it properly yet, but I'm not finding it as good as the first one yet. It has its moments, but it seems rather...drab in comparison in many ways. Perhaps it will, as many have said, improve up until the final planet.

[a big boy]

Perhaps I simply haven't been able to get into it properly yet, but I'm not finding it as good as the first one yet. It has its moments, but it seems rather...drab in comparison in many ways. Perhaps it will, as many have said, improve up until the final planet.

Yeah it's a bitch, especially early on, but it's worth persisting with is all I can say.

[Warszawa]

I'm now trying to complete Nar Shaddaa and did a tiny bit on Dantooine when I couldn't figure out what to do....there are glimpses of excellence, so I'm sure I'll get into it more as I persist.

Click For Spoiler

I'm not liking the fight against those two assassin sisters with Atton at the minute though. Most battles have been pretty easy up until now, but this one seems tricky.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

Man, to tell you the truth, I haven't even fixed HK yet. And it's eating up inside. I think I just need the processor and then he's done. Can you remember where to get it? Also, please don't tell me my lightside alignment will affect his. I love the evil little cunt.

Sorry, I can't recall off the top of my head where the bits and bobs are. It's something like:

Peragus HK-50: drops a part

Telos (polar region) HK-50s: one drops a part

Nar Shadaar (Jogga depot) HK-50s: one drops a part

Dantooine & Onderon or Nar Shadarr droid traders: sell various parts

Nar Shadaar female Greedo: sells the HK pacifist protocols (fried fucking gold), if you fulfill certain conditions...

And yes, given his personality, naturally you'll only impress him by committing acts of unspeakable nastiness and cruelty while he's in your party. You know, starting riots, blowing up stranded and defenceless Mandalorians, laughing in needy widows faces, that sort of thing. Lightsiders need not apply.

[dismembo]

Just finished this as a lightside jedi master geezer and must admit I am a bit perplexed by the ending.

Click For Spoiler

After defeating Kreia/Treyus you get to converse for as long as you want to fill in various plot points. When you've finished, she comedically screams and falls over dead in a really OTT fashion. The Ebon Hawk then somehow flies to my position which has suddenly started crumbling and collapsing all around me for no apparent reason. Ebon Hawk flies off into space and hyperdrives into the sunset.

The End.

I assume Bao-Durs remote set off the watsit bomb. However, last I saw of him was an unresolved standoff where GO-TO had the upper hand.

Meanwhile, Mira and Hanharr had a scrap. I as Mira spared him and walked away, with Hanharr vowing to hunt me down again.

Any help would be appreciated.

[JoeK]

What can I say? I'm back to thoroughly enjoying it at the minute. I still have some problems with the choice of words the devs used in the dialogues (Using 'Jedi' multiple times in the same sentance really pisses me off for some unfathomable reason), but there's some very decent writing going on, and the conversation paths you can go down are superbly written.

Just seen my first glimpse of the Sith on the front cover of the box (does he always talk in gobbledegook?) - seems okay, but I'm damn certain I'll be able to take him.

Yay.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

What can I say? I'm back to thoroughly enjoying it at the minute. I still have some problems with the choice of words the devs used in the dialogues (Using 'Jedi' multiple times in the same sentance really pisses me off for some unfathomable reason), but there's some very decent writing going on, and the conversation paths you can go down are superbly written.

Don't forget 'echo/echoes'. Going by this game, it ties with 'Jedi' for the title of most overused word in the galaxy. Half of Kreia's dialogue could be surmised as 'Jedi...blah blah blah...echoes...yakity shmakity...Jedi echo...blah blah'

Just seen my first glimpse of the Sith on the front cover of the box (does he always talk in gobbledegook?) - seems okay, but I'm damn certain I'll be able to take him.

It's TEH LANGUAGE OF TEH TRUE SITH aka English played backwards. Cunning so-and-sos, the Jedi will never cotton on to their plans, oh no. Oh and you'll take him, alright. He's actually a contender for softest Sith Lord ever. At least Sion puts up a decent fight or ten...

[SM47]

I've just finished it, and though I did enjoy it, I enjoyed the first game a lot more.

Iv'e started replaying it through as a darksider.

I liked the

Click For Spoiler

Reference to Jango/Boba Fett from Kreia at the end.

[a big boy]

If you're any good at Force Powers Sion is a pushover. Stasis Field, Force Shock, Force Shock, Master Flurry did it for me every time. And you're all quite correct about the final level, 'tis shockingly poor. Only thing was, I didn't manage to kill HanHarr as Mira (had been using her almost exclusively as a tech expert and hadn't bothered to level up her strength at all)... Did I miss out on anything?

[Space Renegade Ulala]

Didn't notice first time through but there's a nice little ANH homage at the start of the Ravager section - Mandalore's troops burst through a blast door blasting the Sith troopers followed by Mandalore himself, who strolls in through the flames and takes a moment to survey the carnage ala Vader. I kind of wish the game ended with the destruction of Nilhilus and the Ravager, it'd make a much better and grander finale, despite Nilhilus being a pushover. The final area is just horrible, in every sense of the word...

[JoeK]

When Edge reviewed KOTOR2 they suggested that the idea had reached a bit of a dead end - inasmuch as 'it's been done, nothing more to see, move along' (see what I did there?).

I disagree. I think the gameplay itself is incredibly sound - I enjoy seeing what paths the conversations can take, and both Bioware and Obsidian certainly have the story skills to make me buy another sequel.

What would be good is if they either scuppered an Xbox version, and put all their effort into a graphical superb PC version, or hang fire until the next gen machines come out - which would be annoying, as we'd be waiting an age.

The graphics do let the game down somewhat. Aside from some of the main character design - which is decent - the animation is just old hat, and much of the scenary is just drab and dull. I got more pleasure out of going to Korriban than pretty much any of the other planets - simply because it's got a genuine sense of 'oooh, wonder' to it.

Still roll on more Sith baddies - they know how to craft right wankers, don't they?

[Hodge]

Completed this yesterday and what a let down the ending was (even more so than halo2). Still thought the 1st was the better game overall especially on the later parts. But kotor2 did have it`s moments especially on onderon where you have to assist in saving the palace, being the stand out part of the game for me.

Edge are definately right in saying the graphics engine needs sorting though as the game comes to a stand still in parts and seeing loading screen, upon loading screen, upon loading screen is extremely annoying and ruined the flow of the game in parts for me. Lets hope they encorperate some sort of data streaming method into the next graphics engine and make those loading screens a thing of the past.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

When Edge reviewed KOTOR2 they suggested that the idea had reached a bit of a dead end - inasmuch as 'it's been done, nothing more to see, move along' (see what I did there?).

I disagree. I think the gameplay itself is incredibly sound - I enjoy seeing what paths the conversations can take, and both Bioware and Obsidian certainly have the story skills to make me buy another sequel.

Hmmm. Despite having done almost 70hrs already and gearing up for another (hopefully perfect LS) run after this one, I can definitely see their point. Both in pure gameplay and narrative terms, how many times can you have a protagonist start out with nothing then hit Yoda/Anakin levels in a ridiculously small space of time* while helping out/executing various hard-luck cases and psychopaths before you just repeat yourself? It's akin to the Metroid thing where some ridiculous contrivance 5 minutes in will see Samus stripped of all her weapons and abilities and you go off to get the same old things all over again.

But then again, I have to admit, it's the talky part I love the most. I love the detective mysteries (better handled in the first game, I thought), the diplomatic air your Jedi has as she potters about the galaxy sorting out various disputes. The part I would be inclined to tweak is the character customisation and particularly the combat, which I'd like to see done in a similar fashion to Fable (though not necessarily random button bashing), something to truly capture the fun/danger/power of swinging a lightsabre around. Of course, that would most likely not be to everyone's liking - I appreciate not everyone looks for or indeed wants a more arcadey fighting mechanic in an RPG.

Who am I kidding? As long as it's funny, has a decent story, an interesting bunch of characters and a nice spangly green lightsabre for me to swoosh about, I practically fucking sold. I still think any follow-up should be on the next gen machines, though. I don't think my Xbox drive can handle another one without grinding to a halt and exploding into flames...

*Then again, Luke Skywalker spent a few hours with Yoda and next thing you know, he's virtually a Jedi Knight so who's to say how long it takes...

Still roll on more Sith baddies - they know how to craft right wankers, don't they?

My favourite thing in the first game was Yuthura Ban - she was rather persuasive in her arguments about why the Sith were unfairly viewed by others. But she was the exception to the rule, though. The rest of 'em? Give them the Mr Bronson treatment, I say.

But kotor2 did have it`s moments especially on Onderon where you start a revolution by EXECUTING EVERY MOTHERFUCKIN' LAST ONE of those royalist shmucks in the Palace, being the stand out part of the game for me.

Ahem. But yes, the Onderon Civil War and the Battle of Telos were fantastic, as is hunting down Vrook and co if you go dark side. Killing Vrook was highly satisfying.

[a big boy]

My favourite thing in the first game was Yuthura Ban - she was rather persuasive in her arguments about why the Sith were unfairly viewed by others.

Absolutely. And again my favourite thing about this game were all the arguments over whether or not really were that pure, saying that they've grown arrogant and have always enjoyed wielding their power over the galaxy. This may seem a little like Edge's comparison between the growth of videogames and fine art a few months ago, but I've never seen Nietzsche's philosophy as explicitly expressed in sci-fi as it is in the Sith, and the idea that for all the Jedi's moral preaching (parallel to Christianity?), they are just as clear an expression of Will to Power as the Sith, as they are just as determined to force their will on to others, could be straight from the pages of Beyond Good and Evil. It's great to see cos in the films "dark side" is never explained. The whole plot is presented as a direct battle between “good” and “evil”, while the point of the game's seems to be that Jedi and Sith are just two sides of the same coin and which side is "right" or "wrong" is entirely the choice of the player. Next to Knights of the Old Republic, the films seem like some dumbed down dramatisation of a classic. The again, as a friend pointed out to me, of course the games can go into more detail cos the films are aiamed at the mainstream and the games are aimed at Xbox owning, dungeons and dragons playing, geeks that positively demand this sort of shit from their 30 hour + investment.

[Guest nomenclature]

The thing that I took away from it initially is that neither the Sith or the Jedi are particularly appealing. If there was some kind of Kreia-styled option I almost would have certainly gone for that. Being purely lightside comes across as being extremely naive while a lot of the darkside choices are incredibly petty. The portrayal of the Sith in the first one seemed to be mainly based around this too. Kreia was truly menacing because she didn't follow either.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

That's probably Kreia's triumph - when it you get down to it, she was the only one with a truly balanced view as both the Sith and the Jedi were held back by their clinging so tightly to a single belief. She had tried both ways and seen their failures...it was a pity things turn out for her the way they do.

Ah, all those early posts where I complained about her. I was so, so wrong. She was possibly the greatest mentor you could ask for.

Here's a poser for you, lifted from Mandalore: Was fighting the war worth it? Would you have gone with Revan and Malak or sided with the Council? Even now, I honestly couldn't say who was right, if anyone could be...

[Matt Defis]

You mean like "Doing a Bindo"

Edit:was i the only one who noticed that quote in Kotor 2

[Guest]

So far, since buying KOTOR 2, I've turned it on to see the intro.

Then I turned it off and trotted back to WoW

[a big boy]

The thing that I took away from it initially is that neither the Sith or the Jedi are particularly appealing. If there was some kind of Kreia-styled option I almost would have certainly gone for that. Being purely lightside comes across as being extremely naive while a lot of the darkside choices are incredibly petty. The portrayal of the Sith in the first one seemed to be mainly based around this too. Kreia was truly menacing because she didn't follow either.

Yeah, I think that's very true. The game seems a bit confused in that way because while the Sith and the Jedi represent the two sides of the force and the number of dark side and light side points is supposed to roughly add up to where you fit in the scale, the scale itself ignores the distinction the game makes itself between a choice consistent with Sith teachings, for instance consciously manipulating your followers, and simply slaughtering some random for kicks. In the same way, the game begs the question was Revan really "evil" in the same way as Malak when all his conquests seem to be for the purpose of uniting the galaxy, when in contrast Malak seemed to simply destroy for the sake of destruction?

Kreia was interesting cos she seemed to personify this distinction. If you asked her if she was Jedi or Sith she'd basically tell you that the question itself is meaningless, and if you did anything needlessly good or evil she'd berate you for it and occasionally show how your "good" act could lead to greater suffering (try giving the beggars 5 credits on Nar Shadda or helping the guy in trouble with the bounty hunters). In her own choices she was manipulative, but pragmatic, and this showed up by having her strictly neutral on the dark/light scale, even though she turned out to be the most powerful Sith Lord. Maybe the point was that the Sith themselves were just as guilty as the Jedi of blindly following faith and teachings and that the only way to really realise the ultimate goal of the Sith was to be independent, neutral and pragmatic like Kreia and Revan. Thinking about it, this (rather than the Sith themselves) would be enitrely consistent with Nietzsche cos he always said that only a very few could ever grasp and live his philosophy, and that one that could would have to be a creator of their own values, to exist Beyond Good and Evil. So there you have it, Kreia and Revan are the Ubermensch, and I have far too much time on my hands.