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35 minutes ago, deKay said:

No, they were converting all the humans to be cybermen *then* were going to wipe out everything else.

 

In what way were they converting anyone? They were a: trying to kill everyone and b: planning to erase all the organic material anyway. It didn't stand up really. There are supposed to be a grand total of 7 humans left? Just get on with the real plan already.

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'Look at you, you broken little...'

 

'Wait, so I can regenerate forever? I can literally throw bodies at any problem until it goes away?'

 

'I don't...'

 

'And I can heal people too? Like I did with River's wrist? As many people as I want because I literally produce an infinite amount of this stuff?'

 

'I'm not sure that's quite...'

 

'Oh, remember that thing the one with the chin did, where he zapped a Dalek battlefleet out of the sky with his regeneration energy? Now I don't have to save it up, I can do that too!'

 

'... I've made a terrible mistake.'

 

*noises off, as the Doctor just wanders around shooting things with her regeneration energy finger-guns, because that's a thing she can do now, apparently*

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@omus I don't think this means the Doctor can suddenly regenerate forever. Her regenerations are still fixed at twelve per cycle, and she only got more thanks to the Time Lords intervening. Presumably she had hers artificially limited like all the others, they just kept rebooting her.

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watched this twice now, and with the exception of the master - who i think is brilliant in this incarnation - ive think they have actually broke and possibly ruined Doctor who :(   (rant about to start)

Spoiler

there are now some major plot holes created by the whole the Doctor isnt from galifrey reveal.  First off in "time of the doctor" - why did the time lords even bother to send the dr a new set of regens to wipe the daleks out if  he could continulosly regen anyway? (was it to keep the pretense up?)     

 

How the hell did the judoon get aboard the Tardis as its been said countless time that nothing could enter a tardis, not the daleks , not the hordes of Genghis Khan - but fecking rhino keystone cops can!  

 

So how man other unkown dr's are out there - why do they all have a police box's as a tadris? esp as hartnell stole his which was faulty (thanks to clara telling him to take it)  

 

Where all the timelords in on it?  or only a select few?  - if so why would they let the dr have kids then grandkids etc.. surely they would then have the same/similar regen  powers as the dr??  Also when they made the DR regen into a child - was the DR given pretend parents etc... to look after them etc... (did only the master and Dr not know this?) 

 

Why banish the Dr to Earth in the third series for a being a trouble maker and running away - why not just wipe the DR's mind, make him regen and send him on his merry way again?

 

Why elect the DR as president of Galifrey - esp as they seemed to want to keep the DR under control - surely what would have stopped the DR as high president from looking at all classified info from the matrix?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mogster said:

@omus I don't think this means the Doctor can suddenly regenerate forever. Her regenerations are still fixed at twelve per cycle, and she only got more thanks to the Time Lords intervening. Presumably she had hers artificially limited like all the others, they just kept rebooting her.

i think the DR can constantly regen its what i took from it - its only the timelords who have set a limit when they spliced the dr's dna with there own - otherwise why even keep the dr about  what would be the point after the first set of regens where done - why allow the dr to keep getting new sets if its not needed.

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35 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

In what way were they converting anyone? They were a: trying to kill everyone and b: planning to erase all the organic material anyway. It didn't stand up really. There are supposed to be a grand total of 7 humans left? Just get on with the real plan already.

 

The lone Cyberman explained they were converting humans to be fully synthetic. Hence the reason why The Master derided him with "robots? That's your plan?" and then "what about you?" as he pointed out he was more human than most.

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21 minutes ago, papalazarou said:

watched this twice now, and with the exception of the master - who i think is brilliant in this incarnation - ive think they have actually broke and possibly ruined Doctor who :(   (rant about to start)

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there are now some major plot holes created by the whole the Doctor isnt from galifrey reveal.  First off in "time of the doctor" - why did the time lords even bother to send the dr a new set of regens to wipe the daleks out if  he could continulosly regen anyway? (was it to keep the pretense up?)     

 

How the hell did the judoon get aboard the Tardis as its been said countless time that nothing could enter a tardis, not the daleks , not the hordes of Genghis Khan - but fecking rhino keystone cops can!  

 

So how man other unkown dr's are out there - why do they all have a police box's as a tadris? esp as hartnell stole his which was faulty (thanks to clara telling him to take it)  

 

Where all the timelords in on it?  or only a select few?  - if so why would they let the dr have kids then grandkids etc.. surely they would then have the same/similar regen  powers as the dr??  Also when they made the DR regen into a child - was the DR given pretend parents etc... to look after them etc... (did only the master and Dr not know this?) 

 

Why banish the Dr to Earth in the third series for a being a trouble maker and running away - why not just wipe the DR's mind, make him regen and send him on his merry way again?

 

Why elect the DR as president of Galifrey - esp as they seemed to want to keep the DR under control - surely what would have stopped the DR as high president from looking at all classified info from the matrix?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Why didn't Clara see this when she entered his timestream? 

 

Why did the Doctor basically confirm he was half human in Hell Bent? 

 

Why were the Time Lords clearly a lot more powerful than the Doctor or Master - they've forced a regen on the Doctor, ripped him out of his timeline and more - was the Master able to wipe them out. The Master that ran away during the time war? 

 

Why didn't the Doctor or Master discover this the last time they were in the Matrix? 

 

The last remain scraps of the Valyard making any sense whatsoever are gone. 

 

Why finally complete the transformation of the Doctor into a Messianic figure, especially after spending a heap of Calpaldi's run rowing away from it - I'm just a madman in a box

 

Why has no one noticed N more Doctor's floating about? You'd think River would have noticed. Or it'd have been in the Library

 

There are probably a thousand more. It makes no sense from An Unearthly Child to Hell Bent. It is also on its merits shit and doubling down on all the worst impulses on Nu Who. 

 

Proper reboot time. 

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28 minutes ago, papalazarou said:

i think the DR can constantly regen its what i took from it - its only the timelords who have set a limit when they spliced the dr's dna with there own - otherwise why even keep the dr about  what would be the point after the first set of regens where done - why allow the dr to keep getting new sets if its not needed.

 

I assumed the Doctors regenerations were limited the same way as the other Time Lords. They could all regenerate indefinitely without being artificially restricted.

 

Also if the Doctor could regenerate indefinitely then Twelve would have sorted himself out a lot earlier.

 

As for your other points:

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:
 
 

there are now some major plot holes created by the whole the Doctor isnt from galifrey reveal.  First off in "time of the doctor" - why did the time lords even bother to send the dr a new set of regens to wipe the daleks out if  he could continulosly regen anyway? (was it to keep the pretense up?)

 

See above.

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:
 
 

How the hell did the judoon get aboard the Tardis as its been said countless time that nothing could enter a tardis, not the daleks , not the hordes of Genghis Khan - but fecking rhino keystone cops can!

 

 

I thought this, but then they're hardly the first. The rules of the Tardis get bent and broken all the time, especially during "what, what, what?" cliffhangers. It was a bit lazy though.

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:
 

So how man other unkown dr's are out there - why do they all have a police box's as a tadris? esp as hartnell stole his which was faulty (thanks to clara telling him to take it) 

 

 

We don't know that they

all have police box Tardis', or even that Martin's was stuck in that setting. Clara told Hartnell to take that one because she knew which one was used in the future.

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:
 

Where all the timelords in on it?  or only a select few?  - if so why would they let the dr have kids then grandkids etc.. surely they would then have the same/similar regen  powers as the dr??  Also when they made the DR regen into a child - was the DR given pretend parents etc... to look after them etc... (did only the master and Dr not know this?)

 

 

Just a select few. The master didn't know about it for a start. And again, all Time Lords have their regenerations artificially limited.

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:
 

Why banish the Dr to Earth in the third series for a being a trouble maker and running away - why not just wipe the DR's mind, make him regen and send him on his merry way again?

 

 

This is just an assumption, but presumably the Time Lords who banished the Doctor either weren't in on it, or the mind wipe thing had to be done at the end of a full set of regenerations or something.

 

31 minutes ago, papalazarou said:

Why elect the DR as president of Galifrey - esp as they seemed to want to keep the DR under control - surely what would have stopped the DR as high president from looking at all classified info from the matrix?

 

I don't really have an answer for this one. :D

 

Basically though, Doctor Who's canon is all over the place, but this talk of "breaking" or "ruining" the entire show is nonsense however you feel about the finale. It changes absolutely nothing about the format of the show, but adds some interesting backstory to explore about the Doctor and the Time Lords.

 

It's not like they've done something really bonkers, like, oh, making the Doctor half human or something... :ph34r:

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The thing that makes this retcon so shitty is that you can see from a mile off all the hackneyed mystery box bullshit they're going to lean on for years to come (assuming it’s not cancelled well before then). Ooooooooh who are the Doctor's actual species and what's behind the portal (I don't care). Expect that one to be drip fed and drawn out. Also lots of chosen one bullshit, because nowadays protagonists have to be the super duper oh so special prophecied one with a DESTINY, instead of just someone who gets into adventures. I'd also anticipate a succession of very special guest stars playing previously unknown incarnations of the Doctor as she runs into them to get involved in sexy Section 31 stories about her secret past.

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Personally I think people need to chill a bit. Fandoms are some of the most conservative groups I've ever seen. I'd be more concerned about how rare it is to get a really well written and plotted episode over any change to the so called "canon"

 

By all means complain Chibnal and others can't write their way out of a paper bag and are probably artificially limited by the 50 minute episodes forced on the show by foreign sales but changes to back story? In a sci-fi show of all things? The most common thing I think in discussions like these is that people are too grounded and seem to have difficulty exercising their imaginations.

 

I also hold the opinion that Chibs was a bad choice of showrunner anyway. The cast hasn't been well served so far and deserve better.

 

For some bonus reading I'm going to drop these here

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Cat's_Cradle:_Time's_Crucible_(novel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_(Doctor_Who)

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Faction_Paradox

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Alien_Bodies_(novel)

http://www.drwhoguide.com/whobbc25.htm

http://www.drwhoguide.com/whobbc26.htm

 

As a side question. How many times do we reckon the Timeless child was murdered while the regeneration research was going on? Less chosen one and more victim imo.

 

 

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so Rassilon then....  just a big fat liar then since it was now Tetchun who founded the time lords, unless dum dum dum Tetchun became Rassilon - in which case ive prob just spoiled the end of next season big reveal so sorry for that lmao!

 

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The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am with the finale and the series as a whole.

 

I can forgive the occasional plot hole but this was littered with them throughout. 

 

I don't think theres anything wrong with challenging or even changing previous lore - if it's done well, and for the right reasons.

 

This just hasn't been. It feels contrived, and it feels like a bit of a damp squib due to the unnecessary build up (in which time they've conveniently forgotten about the whole story arc for the majority of the series). 

 

Good writing means that you can allow the goalposts to be shifted if the story surrounding everything works but this just doesn't IMO - it's like they've thrown everything into this big revelation but for me, they haven't earned the right to do so yet.

 

I'm not confident about the future of the show at all.

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12 minutes ago, deKay said:

What?

"Hence" means "which is why" or "therefore". "Why" means "the reason". "Hence why" is irritating enough, but putting all three together like nails down a blackboard.

 

Less is more, sonny!

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Just now, Sprite Machine said:

"Hence" means "which is why" or "therefore". "Why" means "the reason". "Hence why" is irritating enough, but putting all three together like nails down a blackboard.

 

Less is more, sonny!

 

Fewer is more, you mean.

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BTW. Despite being a massive fan I find the show generally disapoints more than it provides. I don't generally have a problem with the ideas presented but the show tends to fall down a lot with the execution. I have this problem with a lot of TV shows. I remember being really disapointed for example with almost every major plot resolution in Babylon 5. Stuff tends to be too conservative on TV. A little bit afraid to push the boundaries. Understandable probably but still sad.

 

It's even more pronounced when you have a background like mine. Long time fan of the classic show who then descended into the batfuck insane madness of the NAs and EDAs before the show eventually returned. For me this latest revelation about the Doctor's past isn't bad. It's just really tame and safe. So seeing all the people losing their shit is a bit weird :) Oh and it's badly written but that's mostly a given with ar chibs.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Very special guest stars playing previously unknown incarnations of the Doctor as she runs into them to get involved in sexy Section 31 stories about her secret past.

 

Oh God I just saw Michael Burnham as a Doctor with Tilly as a companion.

 

25 minutes ago, Flub said:

Personally I think people need to chill a bit. Fandoms are some of the most conservative groups I've ever seen. I'd be more concerned about how rare it is to get a really well written and plotted episode over any change to the so called "canon"

 

Why bother with any continuity or structure. Let's just have a series of 12 completely unrelated stories with completely unrelated characters. Hell, fuck it, why not apply this to actual episodes. We can just change everything completely from scene to scene. It'd be avant garde. 

 

Done right, "lore" or wider continuity builds your world and provides the foundations of your stories. Respecting stuff that happens before and the rules of the world is what gives your stories verisimilitude and impact. Changing it shouldn't be impossible, but you should be fucking careful with it. And basically every Sci Fi series I've watched recently just does not give a fuck. 

 

This is comic book levels of shit. This is Star Trek: Discovery levels of shit. The best thing is that Moffat had cleaned more or less all this shit up and left a relatively clean slate. The Doctor could have just been a wanderer for a while again. 

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10 minutes ago, Flub said:

BTW. Despite being a massive fan I find the show generally disapoints more than it provides. I don't generally have a problem with the ideas presented but the show tends to fall down a lot with the execution. I have this problem with a lot of TV shows. I remember being really disapointed for example with almost every major plot resolution in Babylon 5. Stuff tends to be too conservative on TV. A little bit afraid to push the boundaries. Understandable probably but still sad.

 

It's even more pronounced when you have a background like mine. Long time fan of the classic show who then descended into the batfuck insane madness of the NAs and EDAs before the show eventually returned. For me this latest revelation about the Doctor's past isn't bad. It's just really tame and safe. So seeing all the people losing their shit is a bit weird :) Oh and it's badly written but that's mostly a given with ar chibs.

 

 

 

The NAs and EDAs had some good stories and a lot of really, really bad ideas. RTD rightly did not go near any of that when he did the reboot. 

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Yeah but anything by Mad Larry or Kate Orman is well worth your time. 

 

I mean he retconned the 3rd regenerating into 4th and I bloody loved it. 

 

It's all about the quality of the writing and that's my issue.  Canon means nothing and I will happily enjoy a good retcon. If its done well. 

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1 hour ago, Flub said:

BTW. Despite being a massive fan I find the show generally disapoints more than it provides. I don't generally have a problem with the ideas presented but the show tends to fall down a lot with the execution. I have this problem with a lot of TV shows. I remember being really disapointed for example with almost every major plot resolution in Babylon 5. Stuff tends to be too conservative on TV. A little bit afraid to push the boundaries. Understandable probably but still sad.

 

It's even more pronounced when you have a background like mine. Long time fan of the classic show who then descended into the batfuck insane madness of the NAs and EDAs before the show eventually returned. For me this latest revelation about the Doctor's past isn't bad. It's just really tame and safe. So seeing all the people losing their shit is a bit weird :) Oh and it's badly written but that's mostly a given with ar chibs.

 

 

 

Maybe a wee bit.  However B5 was better plotted, with far more rounded characters and proper motivations than Nu Who or any of the current crop of Star Treks.  I did a rewatch of B5 recently and I think the rush to resolutions was more due to the threat of cancellation hanging over it in S4 rather than poor plotting.

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Overall very disappointed with this season.

 

I thought the last season mostly wasn't very good -- dull plotting, clunky characters, a "detective drama" tone that didn't work -- but I hoped they wouldn't just sack Whittaker and change direction, because then the alt-right Youtubers would all make videos saying: "Female Doctor: Massive Failure Proven!" And that would have been a terrible shame because Whittaker wasn't the problem. Sure she wasn't great, but she was let down by bad writing. She needed another year to become more Doctor-y, and Chibnall needed another year to get into the swing of things and start delivering better Doctor Who. 

 

This hasn't happened at all. Instead, this season has been a bizarre set of missteps. The tone, pace and lore are all over the shop. A couple of classic "adventure runarounds" were just awful. A decent enough historical with Tesla. A fun maniacal Master, but everything else is morbid and miserable. The companions... sorry, the "Fam"... have been totally under-written and under-used, to the point that they may as well not exist -- the Doctor spends all her time shutting them out and not telling them anything, not connecting with them at all. They get barely more screen time than other characters-of-the-week, and rarely work together. They aren't a "fam" at all. Then the lore... my god, the lore. Whittaker has been forced by the writing into becoming a mostly passive, irritable, mood-swinging character. She spent the last episode standing still and learning she's The Most Special Time Lord Ever.

 

Was this last episode entirely designed to explain an issue with The Brain of Morbius?

 

Of course I have to keep watching this show until they put it out of its misery (like The Walking Dead). I don't know what the viewing figures and audience appreciation are like, but I wonder if we're getting close to cancellation.

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Yet again I think I must be easily pleased because I thought that was alright. Not great, and full of holes, but alright. As series finales go it was no Pandorica Opens but then again what else is?

 

And don’t worry about this fundamentally changing the lore. Surely by now we’ve learned that the lore is constantly being revised. New things contradict old things and become the lore until even newer things come along to contradict them. In years to come this will have all been an elaborate deception by the Master and the Doctor will be revealed to be just a normal Time Lord after all. Or it will just be ignored like so many other things from decades ago that have never and will never be resolved.

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On 03/03/2020 at 10:44, kensei said:

 

. The Doctor could have just been a wanderer for a while again. 

Didn't the 13th Doctor basically say In The Woman Who Fell To Earth  "I'm just a traveller passing through"?   Should of stuck with that.

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11 hours ago, Darren said:

Yet again I think I must be easily pleased because I thought that was alright. Not great, and full of holes, but alright. As series finales go it was no Pandorica Opens but then again what else is?

 

And don’t worry about this fundamentally changing the lore. Surely by now we’ve learned that the lore is constantly being revised. New things contradict old things and become the lore until even newer things come along to contradict them. In years to come this will have all been an elaborate deception by the Master and the Doctor will be revealed to be just a normal Time Lord after all. Or it will just be ignored like so many other things from decades ago that have never and will never be resolved.

 

Pandorica Opens wasn't the series finale :blah:

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58 minutes ago, Hexx said:

 

Pandorica Opens wasn't the series finale :blah:

 

Wasn't it? Well you know the one I mean. "This is where it gets complicated."

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1 hour ago, Darren said:

 

Wasn't it? Well you know the one I mean. "This is where it gets complicated."

 

The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang was a two part series finale ^_^

 

14 hours ago, Darren said:

And don’t worry about this fundamentally changing the lore. Surely by now we’ve learned that the lore is constantly being revised. New things contradict old things and become the lore until even newer things come along to contradict them. In years to come this will have all been an elaborate deception by the Master and the Doctor will be revealed to be just a normal Time Lord after all. Or it will just be ignored like so many other things from decades ago that have never and will never be resolved.

 

This is the same thing comic books suffer with. Nothing matters. And if nothing matters, why should anyone care? 

 

The problem is too much Sci Fi is addicted to the big reveal that upends the table. They want the Empire Strikes Back or Planet of the Apes moment. But those have diminishing returns. And the problem with recons, rather than remakes, is that recontextualises everything before. It's hard to forget stuff. 

 

Anyway, I don't think you can ignore this one, especially after a series or two of Chibnall doubling down. 

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