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FishyFish
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The whole idea of hiding for 3 months from a time-travelling enemy is a bit daft; they can turn up at any time, the three months is only their personal timeline.

Although I agree that these were the best episodes I think its interesting that they are the first with such significant plot holes (the hiding, Martha not having the watch etc.). The 'hiding in every mirror' thing seemed like magic rather than science too.

I don't have a problem with any of this. I just think it's strange that the plot-hole brigade haven't been along today.

Actually, the hiding for three months wasn't a plot hole. The time travel wasn't the key element. The key element was the Doctor becoming human to become concealed. The TARDIS could have placed them anywhere, and it wouldn't have mattered to the story. In fact, the previous episode was clear they couldn't just run and hide somewhere in time as the Doctor's scent could be tracked. The watch is a wee bit of a plot hole, but not one difficult to explain away in 3 lines of dialog if necessary.

It is amazing how much more forgiving people are if the underlying episode is better done and better executed.

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I cried :wacko:

Brilliant episode.

I watched it again tonight, and I was welling up even before the sad stuff kicked off this time. For a sci-fi show, Doctor Who can be incredibly emotional when it wants to be.

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First - god, that two-parter was amazing, wasn't it? Every aspect done well. Not a single moment where I winced slightly at a bad line or dodgy effect. More please.

But that's the brilliance of Doctor Who. One week it's this, the next week that. I loved the Dalek two parter - I loved this two parter. I loved Smith & Jones, 42, The Shakespeare Code. All of them this series, in fact. And they've all been very different. I wouldn't like it to go too far down either route. The balance it's had this series has been perfect.

I think I agree. I'd rather we didn't get too much silly stuff, and I think I'd like to have longer periods of each tone with more gradual transitions between them. But, in general, yeah.

To consider Grainer the only author or composer of the original theme is simply due to a fault in our definition of 'composer', probably based on legal definitions and precendents created before the concept of 'producing' really existed. While he might be technically the composer, the Dr Who theme as we all know it, and as recreated by Gold, was clearly the creative work of both Grainer and Derbyshire, and it would be hard to argue that Derbyshire's contribution wasn't at least as important as the Grainers.

The distinctive theramin sound is being used in the new version, whether it's an original sample or a recreation I don't know, and that was nothing to do with Grainer.

I listened to the original theme today, and I think the "theremin" stuff is probably a sample from the original tapes. It wasn't a theremin though, it was oscillators being mucked around with. Read the wikipedia article ("doctor who theme" will get you there) and see how it was done. It'll blow your mind.

The whole idea of hiding for 3 months from a time-travelling enemy is a bit daft; they can turn up at any time, the three months is only their personal timeline.

Haha, I hadn't thought of that.

Although I agree that these were the best episodes I think its interesting that they are the first with such significant plot holes (the hiding, Martha not having the watch etc.). The 'hiding in every mirror' thing seemed like magic rather than science too.

I don't have a problem with any of this. I just think it's strange that the plot-hole brigade haven't been along today.

I think it just shows that when we don't like something, we look for a reason. When we love it, we don't pick holes. It probably means that the holes we pick when we don't like it aren't really the reason - they're just more tangible than the other factors that make an episode that we somehow don't enjoy.

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My mother cried.

"I never used to cry at Doctor Who!"

She's forgotten Doomsday, then. And Gridlock.

My father told me he thought it was "the best Doctor Who story ever" and "they should release it as a film."

Thumbs up from two casual Who watchers then, it seems.

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Actually, the hiding for three months wasn't a plot hole. The time travel wasn't the key element.

Whether or not it was the key element isn't the point. As I understand it, it's a very clear plot hole because the doctor is hiding for a fixed amount of linear time in order to wait for the family to die. This wouldn't work if the family can travel in time which they clearly can.

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I think it just shows that when we don't like something, we look for a reason. When we love it, we don't pick holes. It probably means that the holes we pick when we don't like it aren't really the reason - they're just more tangible than the other factors that make an episode that we somehow don't enjoy.

I agree. Pretty much all the plot holes people have come up with for previous episodes have been easily debunked. Along comes a brilliant episode seemingly built on a false premise and nobody cares.

I also thing a *lot* of people get hung up on plots when really they aren't that important. They are just something to hang all the good stuff on, the drama, human interaction.

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Whether or not it was the key element isn't the point. As I understand it, it's a very clear plot hole because the doctor is hiding for a fixed amount of linear time in order to wait for the family to die. This wouldn't work if the family can travel in time which they clearly can.

You still grow older don't you, even if you time travel? I didn't think time travel stops the biological aeging process unless you entered a stasis of some sort. Also 'The Family' would still need to spend time trying to find the concealed Dr in time as well. Am I missing something?

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You still grow older don't you, even if you time travel? I didn't think time travel stops the biological aeging process unless you entered a stasis of some sort. Also 'The Family' would still need to spend time trying to find the concealed Dr in time as well. Am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that the Doctor only needed to remain human for three months. Which is cobblers because the three months refers to the Familys personal timeline and that has nothing to do with how long he remains human. They could arrive in 1913 or 1914 or any time.

Now the Doctor might estimate that it would take them 3 months (in their own timeline) to track him down but there's no way he could know that (nor would that be any use to him). They could get lucky and find him on their first day. And seeing as they did find him without any apparent trouble, that isn't especially unlikely.

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As I understood it, on only one watch, I thought that without the scent of the time lord they would have nothing to home in on and simply drift away to die. So it wasn't just that he was hiding away he was cutting off the line that they were clinging to his trajectory, something which obviously included a time line as well as a position.

Of course that theory gets a bit scuppered when they talk about a great war to come the year after... So yeah, it's amazing how many people can do time travel nowadays...

There were plot holes yes, and a couple of things that weren't visually spelt out -

when the family get into their ship I was convinced that it had taken off to bombard the city. When the Doctor got on the ship my first thought was how the hell did he do that (and then my second thought was: olfactory masking... why didn't he do that first?)

But to an extent JP is right, when a double parter is this good the good outweighs the slighty dodgey. I'm not always looking for sense in a Who story but I am looking for cohesion. The 2 parter held it together amazingly through it all whereas other stories haven't for the silliest of reasons. That and the fact that sometimes when anyone picks any issue with the series some people get very upset.

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Well, I'm glad they didn't stuff that up. Just like Girl in the Fireplace last year, this saves what's been a patchy series for me. To Poet I'd say that I try and watch all of the quality US TV drama, and this two-parter compared favourably with the best of this year's US crop.

I liked the twist (the reason for the Doctor's running and hiding). I liked the girl imprisoned in mirrors: that would have creeped me out as a child. Someone remind me where they stole her character from: a girl with a red balloon seems familiar.

So: the little boy didn't turn out to be a baddie after all. I was pretty sure he'd turn out to be a wrong 'un.

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Jon, the Blinovitch limitation effect covers why he was going to wait for 3 months.

The family were dying. He knew they could only travel to times outside their own personal lifetime so therefore he was hiding to let them die. Due to the fact they were there at the same time he was, they could not travel to any point in time where they existed....

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The family were said to own a 'vortex manipulator' and the Doctor commented that they could follow him wherever he went. I took that to mean that they could just stick to him and piggy back onto the TARDIS to end up wherever he ended up (as opposed to being able to travel through time under their own steam). Of course this isn't explicitly stated at the beginning of the first episode, but it was the understanding I operated under for the two episodes. However even if it is true then it has been rather vaguely communicated, I admit.

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I don't know, if what I'm saying isn't actually what Cornell intended, and the family were supposed to be able to travel through time by themselves, then what he's saying is making perfect sense.

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The family were said to own a 'vortex manipulator' and the Doctor commented that they could follow him wherever he went. I took that to mean that they could just stick to him and piggy back onto the TARDIS to end up wherever he ended up (as opposed to being able to travel through time under their own steam).

Clearly not true, as they spoke of the war in 1914.

But basically, does it matter? Not especially to me, at least.

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Gah! One of us isn't following this.

OK, but the family are hunters. How about if the family can only track prey in a linear way? They have time travel capability, but only insofar as they can latch onto a tardis "time signature" or whatever and track where/when it's going? They can't just scan the whole of time and space for time lord DNA.

They'd need some kind of lightning rod for that. :wacko:

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The Family arrived several weeks after the Doctor so I think they have arbitrary time travel not some sort of grapple hook. I don't know why they even appeared in 1913 rather than go somewhere\sometime where he is still\again a timelord.

We didn't see their ship arrive, did we? They could have arrived at about the same time as the Doctor, but only found someone/something to possess when Baines came along. Besides in The Empty Child the Doctor chased after that chula ship in the time vortex and was right behind it, and ended up arriving at a time several months after it had landed in London.

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We didn't see their ship arrive, did we? They could have arrived at about the same time as the Doctor, but only found someone/something to possess when Baines came along. Besides in The Empty Child the Doctor chased after that chula ship in the time vortex and was right behind it, and ended up arriving at a time several months after it had landed in London.

My reading was that as the Family had encountered the Doctor at the begining of HN, they were now in the same timeline.

It was 3 months relatively from that date (in both their personal timestreams) when the family would die.

So the family could have traveled all over time looking for the Doctor, but they'd only age (say 2 months) in they're relative timeline. (Think how Martha was gone for 1 night, but she'd been on 4 adventures. Her and the Doctor's personal time lines were together and aged, say 2 weeks).

Now once the family landed in 1914, they rejoined up with the Doctor's timeline (notice they don't ask how long he's been there). They now can't go back 2 weeks earlier, as it would change their own personal timelines and create a paradox*

(Think...the Doctor/Rose saved many peoples lifes with no affect. When they affected Rose's personal time line by saving her dad, problems arrose)

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