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FishyFish
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Some and some. Did watch it today and had mixed feelings. The story was every bit as contrived as I remember. Story still bodged on most counts but I was surprised at how many possible good elements were in there in the first place, just clumsily handled. The genetic side of things was a great start off just a shame it didn't get the chance to shine.

There were some great shots of the tin pots but there were some awful ones as well. The shots of them in the sewers were often great but the one just in front of the dalek as he barrelled along the corridor made me laugh out loud as the eye pod jumped around. I did like the juxtaposition between the futuristic styling of the dalek and the art deco stylings of the Empire State building but again that could've been handled a lot better. And the shots of them hovering over the shanty town where old Battlestar Gallactica level bad. "Hey, we can have this ominous, powerful killing machine there, hardly moving, showing its supremecy over human weapons, y'know, how we did in S1 when it just stood still and shot everyone and looked AMAZING".. "no, I was thinking more comic book swoosh, y'know, make it look more childish and toylike."

Sigh.

I don't know. I haven't rewatched Cybermen but can't imagine it's as bad, or, at least I don't think it would have been as disapointing. I remember watching Travesty part 2 when Sek starts talking about human emotions and thinking 'ahhhh, now it's going to start getting good' and then, five minutes later I was thrown back down in the pit both on the first and second watch. I do think, conversley, that if they had done a feature film of Dr WHo then Travesty would have been a good basis for something bigger, just without the stupid chase sequences, cod philosophy, awful ending and King Kong ripoff. The basis for the tale was cool just the execution that didn't work for me and others. All told Dalek from S1 has the better pictures and story still.

Who does the commentary? If it's RTD do they just cycle him saying 'brilliant, brilliant, brilliant' every few seconds?

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The Cybermen episodes are far worse.

I seriously don't get the massive negativity about the two Dalek episodes. I thought they were better than almost everything in series two, to be honest. It's like people pick to be overly harsh on certain elements in episodes they dislike, for some reason - with an element of truth, of course - but overlook equally big flaws in episodes they do like.

There's no way either of those Dalek episodes deserve the depth of analysis they've gotten in this thread over the last year.

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The Cybermen episodes are far worse.

I seriously don't get the massive negativity about the two Dalek episodes. I thought they were better than almost everything in series two, to be honest. It's like people pick to be overly harsh on certain elements in episodes they dislike, for some reason - with an element of truth, of course - but overlook equally big flaws in episodes they do like.

There's no way either of those Dalek episodes deserve the depth of analysis they've gotten in this thread over the last year.

Personally I thought they were a fun dose of nostalgia, but were also very lightweight compared to the rest of the series. They also featured the coolest Dalek moment I've ever seen, where the Hooverville chief chap gets zapped after his big speech.

Abridged version:

Chief Chap: Can't we just be friends?

Dalek: EXTERMINATE!!!

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I seriously don't get the massive negativity about the two Dalek episodes.

Me neither. People were even slagging of the American accents of American actors!

The real disappointment was the ending. Why invent new characters only to kill them off within seconds? I don't think the Doctor needs to to totally triumphant every week.

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What? Why does Dalek not count as a story? In terms of beginning middle and end it did infinitely more than Travesty.

Personally I don't get why anyone would defend it to any great extent, but hey. I do agree that it gets more chat that it deserves (to deliberately misread one comment ;) ) For me it was the series low mark - not in terms of story: fear her and a couple of others just didn't work for me in any way shape or form and other stories like the Tube just seemed to not move into the high gear they aspired to but they didn't make me angry at the waste they exhibited. Travesty took all of the rubbish elements that keep cropping up in new Who, especially the death of characters who have more to give in the desperate hope of tugging a heartstring or raising a pulserate, and seemed to shoe horn it into two awful hours.

Most annoying, thinking about it for a few minutes, were the suicidal tendancies of the Doctor. Again that could have been well written, nicely woven into the story either of a Time Lord driven to angry desperation or trying to call a bluff or something but no, it just seemed to be there to be there, no reason, no rhyme, just showing that he's not really got an idea of what to do, just shout, spit and say I'm sorry. Totally out of character.

As for the accents they may well have been pretty authentic but oh boy Tullulah's was straight out of Roger Rabbit (shudder). Was very glad my daughter didn't want to copy her voice at all that could have led to disaster.

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I think it was a victim of RTD's plot lists. Didn't he decide it should feature daleks, '20s NY and pig men? Drop the pig men and give the writer a bit more room to come up with something decent and you might have had a decent story. As it was, pig men begat dalek genetic experiments, which begat the completely out-of-character merging of dalek and human dna. And the shit cock head guy.

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I think it was a victim of RTD's plot lists. Didn't he decide it should feature daleks, '20s NY and pig men? Drop the pig men and give the writer a bit more room to come up with something decent and you might have had a decent story. As it was, pig men begat dalek genetic experiments, which begat the completely out-of-character merging of dalek and human dna. And the shit cock head guy.

Hence me not being rude to Helen Raynor. Nail on the head IMO.

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What? Why does Dalek not count as a story? In terms of beginning middle and end it did infinitely more than Travesty.

Personally I don't get why anyone would defend it to any great extent, but hey. I do agree that it gets more chat that it deserves (to deliberately misread one comment :) ) For me it was the series low mark - not in terms of story: fear her and a couple of others just didn't work for me in any way shape or form and other stories like the Tube just seemed to not move into the high gear they aspired to but they didn't make me angry at the waste they exhibited. Travesty took all of the rubbish elements that keep cropping up in new Who, especially the death of characters who have more to give in the desperate hope of tugging a heartstring or raising a pulserate, and seemed to shoe horn it into two awful hours.

Can I ask, any reason you keep calling the two episodes 'Travesty'?

For me, Dalek was more about that scene with the Doctor when he comes in with the gun about the kill the Dalek. That was a 'let's discover some more about this new Doctor' story than a Dalek story. Sure, there was one in it, and we saw all its new tricks, but I don't think there was a proper let's-see-the-Daleks-hatching-a-plan-like-they-always-used-to story in the new series until Manhatten/Evolution. And I really enjoyed it - they looked and sounded top. :)

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Can I ask, any reason you keep calling the two episodes 'Travesty'?

For me, Dalek was more about that scene with the Doctor when he comes in with the gun about the kill the Dalek. That was a 'let's discover some more about this new Doctor' story than a Dalek story. Sure, there was one in it, and we saw all its new tricks, but I don't think there was a proper let's-see-the-Daleks-hatching-a-plan-like-they-always-used-to story in the new series until Manhatten/Evolution. And I really enjoyed it - they looked and sounded top. :P

That ressonates a bit with what I was saying. I enjoyed it far more as a piece of nostalgia than a good story in its own right. In the first part at least, you could easily have swapped David Tennant with Tom Baker and it would have worked just as well. It was still clearly the low point of the series for me , especially with pretty much every other episode setting such a high standard.

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Can I ask, any reason you keep calling the two episodes 'Travesty'?

Seems pretty obvious to me... Actually it was from here, someone described the eps as a travesty and that seemed a pretty good title description all told. The story didn't evolve. The characters didn't evolve. Good characters were wasted and we ended up back at the start with less that we began with. It was pretty dire, hence "Travesty".

Makes me smile anyhow. It's the best the two parter has to offer (imo).

For me, Dalek was more about that scene with the Doctor when he comes in with the gun about the kill the Dalek. That was a 'let's discover some more about this new Doctor' story than a Dalek story. Sure, there was one in it, and we saw all its new tricks, but I don't think there was a proper let's-see-the-Daleks-hatching-a-plan-like-they-always-used-to story in the new series until Manhatten/Evolution. And I really enjoyed it - they looked and sounded top. :P

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Watching it the second time gave me the distance and space to deconstruct the elements in the script/execution and all told it was pretty messy.

Visually I certainly don't agree with the idea they've never been better. Most shots of the dalek were from above head height giving them - at times - a poisonous and weak feeling (which may have been the point - to play on their diminishing status within the universe and a Napoleon complex - but all told made them look like grumpy mechanical umpa lumpas at times - whereas in Dalek - and it helped that Billie was so short - the shots seemed to be from the daleks head height so made things seem on his level. Also the part where he shoots everyone in the hangar was far more powerful than the shots of the two daleks shooting up Hooverville, for reasons mentioned beforehand. More is only more when it's not wasted. I'd been really looking forward to a Dalek guerilla army ep, it seemed the natural progression for the character in their universe. What we got seemed pretty wasteful and dissapointing. Like I said there were some good moments, there would have been better moments if it hadn't wanted to be Kong so much, but pound for pound it was the lowest ebb for the last series to me (with Blink and Family of Blood being the highest and the majority of the rest being good fun most of the way through).

But this is probably getting boring... series 4? When does it start? Would be nice to get some new material to chat on.

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But this is probably getting boring... series 4? When does it start? Would be nice to get some new material to chat on.

Around Easter is the usual, but what with Easter being rather early this year, I dont know. Still Torchwood for you to berate next Wednesday C-Cat :P

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I finished reading Shadows of Avalon last night.

What was the outcry like when the original TARDIS was destroyed? Seems like a bit much to me. Also really hated what they did to the Brigadier, was really badly written for the most part - shame as was so glad to see him back

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I finished reading Shadows of Avalon last night.

What was the outcry like when the original TARDIS was destroyed? Seems like a bit much to me. Also really hated what they did to the Brigadier, was really badly written for the most part - shame as was so glad to see him back

Not happy IIRC but Compassion makes up for it IMO, although that idea is very under utilised. It is Cornell worst book IMO.

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Not happy IIRC but Compassion makes up for it IMO, although that idea is very under utilised. It is Cornell worst book IMO.

Yeah. the Compassion stuff started to make sense a few books back, given what I could recall of The Ancestor Cell. I love the bit at the end of that with her :P

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I'm currently getting through the first 10 new series books to get me through the wait for series 4. Nice reading stories with Doctor No. 9 and Rose - Mickey and Jackie don't feature a lot which is good :P They're keeping me entertained anyway, been some nice ideas in them - like a world where fiction is outlawed. I'm up to The Feast of the Drowned right now.

There was a bit in The Stone Rose though which I didn't think was right. Basically the Doctor travels to Rome with Rose, he thinks he's lost her and goes back to the present, but then goes back to Rome a couple of days before he left - I thought he wasn't allowed to cross his own timeline? Although he does make sure not to meet himself.

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The final figure for 'Voyage of the Damned' is 13.31 million - making it the second most-watched thing on telly for the whole of 2007, behind only the second Christmas Day edition of EastEnders (14.38m).

At prime time on Xmas day? whodathunkit :P

(it was still pish).

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At prime time on Xmas day? whodathunkit :P

Still though - it's a mind-boggling result, far higher than anyone could've expected. It's also the highest rated episode of any drama in about five years, or something. Also, rating higher than any episode of Corrie for the last year is particularly sweet, considering it was the programme that the Beeb buried Doctor Who against when it wanted an excuse to kill it off in the late 80s, alone and unloved. Having lived through that, this result is kind of surreal, but brilliant.

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Torchwood for you to berate next Wednesday C-Cat :P

Woo! I'll probably do the same I try with most shows that my students will be watching which is catch the first part and the last part (the way that cliffhangers are resolved is always the most interesting thing to me as well). That said I'm not teaching any of the media courses this year only graphic design so may skip it, depends what's up on weds.

Just to clarify though I don't go into these things to slag them off or to have a good moan. If you looked at the posts I did all the way through S3 I think most would probably be positive even when the majority were against me (something like the Sun one or gridlock which were pretty well put together) with the exception of the shows that didn't really hit what I would consider an acceptable quality bar from various angles considering the money that is spent on such things.

Torchwood... Hmm that's a different kettle of fish. I watched it solely to go over it with the BA film students because the discussions would always be pretty interesting (especially the chat following Cyberwoman which I wish I'd recorded for posterity). I'm aware that people were saying it picked up towards the end (although the last ep was pretty ropey from a storyline perspective) so maybe it will be good, who knows?

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Woo! I'll probably do the same I try with most shows that my students will be watching which is catch the first part and the last part (the way that cliffhangers are resolved is always the most interesting thing to me as well). That said I'm not teaching any of the media courses this year only graphic design so may skip it, depends what's up on weds.

Just to clarify though I don't go into these things to slag them off or to have a good moan. If you looked at the posts I did all the way through S3 I think most would probably be positive even when the majority were against me (something like the Sun one or gridlock which were pretty well put together) with the exception of the shows that didn't really hit what I would consider an acceptable quality bar from various angles considering the money that is spent on such things.

Torchwood... Hmm that's a different kettle of fish. I watched it solely to go over it with the BA film students because the discussions would always be pretty interesting (especially the chat following Cyberwoman which I wish I'd recorded for posterity). I'm aware that people were saying it picked up towards the end (although the last ep was pretty ropey from a storyline perspective) so maybe it will be good, who knows?

Your second paragraph isnt needed, your fully entitled to your opinion and I was of course only joking.

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At prime time on Xmas day? whodathunkit ;)

(it was still pish).

Well, the last two xmas specials only got 9 million or thereabouts, so yeah...whodathunkit, eh?

Still, if you think it was pish, it obviously was.

Seems pretty obvious to me... Actually it was from here, someone described the eps as a travesty and that seemed a pretty good title description all told. The story didn't evolve. The characters didn't evolve. Good characters were wasted and we ended up back at the start with less that we began with. It was pretty dire, hence "Travesty".

Makes me smile anyhow.

Oh, right. Hilarious, then.

Fair enough.

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There was a bit in The Stone Rose though which I didn't think was right. Basically the Doctor travels to Rome with Rose, he thinks he's lost her and goes back to the present, but then goes back to Rome a couple of days before he left - I thought he wasn't allowed to cross his own timeline? Although he does make sure not to meet himself.

He crosses his own timeline in Father's Day, in order to give Rose a second chance at being with her dad at his death. Naturally though it had dissastrous consequences.

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He crosses his own timeline in Father's Day, in order to give Rose a second chance at being with her dad at his death. Naturally though it had dissastrous consequences.

That's the episode I had in mind. Thought that all the reprecussion happened just by being in the same timeline (without actually meeting), forgot that Rose had been spotted by their earlier selves - though I think the Reapers were more to do with her having saved her Dad from dying.

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That's the episode I had in mind. Thought that all the reprecussion happened just by being in the same timeline (without actually meeting), forgot that Rose had been spotted by their earlier selves - though I think the Reapers were more to do with her having saved her Dad from dying.

The reapers were entirely due to to Rose saving her Dad. The Doctor mentions that before Gallifrey went pop, the Time Lords kept the timeline in check by preventing anything like that from happening, except for a few significant exceptions. Without them, the Reapers were essentially nature's way of doing the same thing, "cleaning the wound".

Anyway, as I understand Whoniverse time travel, anything goes unless it causes a paradox.

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Nice graphic nicked from Outpost Gallifrey showed just what an impact VotD made on Christmas Day: -

2007chartas6.jpg

Doctor Who's highest ever weekly placing in its history. And, yes, it was Christmas Day, but it only takes two seconds to compare it with the previous two Christmas specials on the list there.

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Astonishing that the second-highest was Ark in Space - I just watched all of this on UKGold for the first time ever. The cliffhanger of ep1, which would lead people into Ep2 obv., is APALLING. Why did so many people tune in after that tosh?!

(Then again I think Who on the whole is pretty terrible altho I watch every one. Its mediocrity is its very charm, etc. etc.)

EDIT: In fact, Ark in Space pt2 is has the highest rating of any Who ever - bloody hell!

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Nice graphic nicked from Outpost Gallifrey showed just what an impact VotD made on Christmas Day: -

Maybe I'm being stupid but why are those in the order they are? It's not like they're in order of audience size or anything. According to that, Voyage of the Damned should be third in the list, not first.

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