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FishyFish
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I'm quite disappointed DT is leaving at the end of next year. It means the swan-song for one of the best Doctors of all will be a string of overblown RTD set-piece episodes. :( I was really looking forward to seeing what he would do with Moffat at the helm.

Don't forget though, the last two specials will be co-written with Steven Moffat. :lol:

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I want to try and settle an argument between myself and my wife.

We all know the Doctor can't travel back in his own timeline or affect his own future selves other than when the timelords or the tardis allowed it in special circumstances.

Therefore, because he met River Song when he was in his tenth life, he now cannot meet her in the future as her body is gone and shes a computer simulation of herself. He retroactively altered his own timeline meaning all the waffle on outpost gallifrey that she has to come back into it in the future is nonsense and also it means they can neatly sidestep it when they cant get alex kingston to come back.

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Doesn't a future him meet a past her? By way of future him travelling back in time to some past period of her life and possibly bringing her on some time adventures of their own. He didn't necessarily alter the timeline. This could be the way it always has been.

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assuming they don't tinker with the format and move the show to the autumn / winter, which I actually wish they would

That wouldnt work as there is no suitable timeslot available on a Saturday night as Come Dancing and X Factor aren't going to end anytime soon.

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Nah, that's rubbish. And there's even precedent -- rent/watch/read Mawdryn Undead, in which the Peter Davison doctor mucks about with the Brigadier across two different timelines. He can appear at multiple points in someone's life.

All it really means is that if the Doctor travels back to the Library at a point in the Library's future, River would still be there. But he could travel back to any point in *River's* past (but his future) to have their adventure(s) together.

It would *presumably* mean that the 11th (or whatever) Doctor would have to hold his tongue very carefully as to not point out to River what's going to happen to her, but there's nothing wrong here.

In fact, he could even stuff things up and tell her; there's a good bit in Pyramids Of Mars where SJS points out that Sutekh can't win in 1911 because she's from (1980? Been a while since I've watched it), and the Doctor disproves that by taking her to a ruined Earth after Sutekh "wins". Continuity ain't what it used to be.

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But if she met ten and then died while with him that then stops the future him meeting her. He cant alter events in his own past. So by meeting her as ten he contradicted meeting her as nth.

unless she was from a future where she's ALREADY met nth.

Oh wait, sorry. That's just too obvious...

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unless she was from a future where she's ALREADY met nth.

Oh wait, sorry. That's just too obvious...

This.

And, technically, he *can* alter events in his own past, even if it's just "meeting himself". Technically, he does exactly this in Three/Five/Two Doctors, albeit unwillingly. He chooses not to muck about in his own past (although whether this is due to immutable laws of time, a la Fathers Day, or Time Lord Law, a la Three/Five/Two Doctors, and argued in Earthshock, so he's just observing it out of habit rather than compulsion, isn't entirely clear.)

Or, as MrsLoathsomeLeopard just pointed out to me, in The Doctor's Daughter, where the Tardis sends him back in his own timeline far enough to create her... oh, god, that's just too annoying. I'd rather pretend that The Doctor's Daughter didn't happen at all, anyway.

But to break it down for you (and I'm making up the dates, just for convenience)

River Song: Born 50,000AD. Died 50040AD (or so).

Met the 11th Doctor in 50035AD, spent four years with him. In 50040AD, travels to the Library, meets the tenth doctor, carks it. No problems at all. The Doctor isn't meeting himself, or interfering with his own timeline in any way at all.

The future him *probably shouldn't* (as per the whole "is it a time lord law, or a LAW" bit above) travel to the Library at the time she was being killed and interfere there, but there's nothing stopping him from travelling throughout time and space. In fact, he's got this neat little box for doing just that...

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But if she met ten and then died while with him that then stops the future him meeting her. He cant alter events in his own past. So by meeting her as ten he contradicted meeting her as nth.

How does meeting her as 10 contradict meeting her later as, say, 12 but at an earlier point in her life? How does it alter his past?

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How does meeting her as 10 contradict meeting her later as, say, 12 but at an earlier point in her life? How does it alter his past?

I'm talking about his past from a future perspective.

She died when she met ten causing a paradox.

That and they will probably not get alex kingston back due to her schedule

Oh and can anyone point me in the direction of eric sawards birth of a renegade online as I would love to read it

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I'm talking about his past from a future perspective.

She died when she met ten causing a paradox.

That and they will probably not get alex kingston back due to her schedule

It's not a paradox, just not linear.

River meets the Doctor long before the events of Silence In The Library, but a long time later in the Doctor's life. The Doctor has already met River at the end of her life, which is probably why he grows to trust her so much in his future, but obviously he doesn't tell her about his past meeting. He does however modify his sonic screwdriver to save her "soul", which he finally gives to her before her visit to the Library, and her encounter with his past self. There's no paradox here, just a linear timeline intersecting a non-linear one.

Anyway, the Doctor can go wherever the hell he likes, with the exception of time-locked events like the Time War. The Time Lords used to prevent anyone from meeting themselves under the First Law of Time, but bent the rules when neccessary in the multi-Doctor stories. Now they're gone, there's no such restriction, as we saw in Father's Day. Obviously the Reapers have other ideas though.

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either way we wont see her again

birth of a renegade anyone?

Eh? The Doctor will still meet River at some point in his future, and then marry her. Whether or not this is actually shown is irrelevent, as for all we know it could be the Fiftieth Doctor that ends up doing so.

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I don't get where the River Song confusion is coming in... in his future he meets a past her. Which she remembers. Seems pretty straight forward timey-wimey stuff?

Do want to catch the ep again, but the dvds aren't out for a couple of weeks or so... But I seem to remember she talked about him looking so young or something? The thing that I'm wondering is whether this gen of Doctor meets her, the next one (in which case would she have recognised him so easily?) or whether it's going to be an unwritten story with tennant in mind for maybe a future multi-doctor story? Not expecting an answer per se, but does anyone remember the thing she said when she saw him that related to his appearance?

Personally I'd like to see a River Song ep in the future, either in or out of the computer, but the only problem with that is that there can be no sense of dilemma because we've seen what happens sometime after.

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It wasn't explicitly stated, IIRC, but it was fairly clear that it wasn't Tennant, or an older Tennant who she was familiar with.

I suggest that you rewatch their first meeting (around 7:10 in the video). She recognises his face and only later realises that he is younger than she has ever seen him. Of course, it doesn't preclude the possibility that she will also meet a later Doctor as well.

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the only issue I can see is why he married her KNOWING she would die meeting a past him in her future.

If anything I think the circumstances of her death probably seal the deal. She did pretty much give her life to save his, and everybody else in the Library. No doubt he would also have the chance to spend a fair amount of time with her beforehand.

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Finished Sarah Jane 205-206.

It was ok...not sure series 2 is good as a whole though.

I just remembered I needed to catch up myself, so I sorted it. It was alright, but the first series was a lot stronger by this point. The next episode looks a bit naff from the preview. :lol:

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