Arsenal

[Baz]

What a spineless bunch of chokers Wenger has assembled - really poor today. Would be happy to see the manager go tbh as much as I've admired his work over the years.

[wev]

Getting tired of all this "they play entertaining football" bull. Because its not is it? It's "Boring, Boring Arsenal" but in a slightly different vein, at least that old team used to grind outa win to claim three points, rather than just stick it out and hope the back l;ine don't fuck up...

[Art Vandelay]

I totally agree with that and I think it's a sentiment that has run through this thread for a while. It just goes to show that commentators don't watch much football when they can describe us as an entertaining football side when we've turned in a handful of actual brilliant performances this season, and probably the last two as well. There was nothing remotely good about today and most disapointingly, Wenger got it wrong yet again. Even in the last 10 minutes when we were facing a ten men Blackburn team we still seemed to stick rigidly to that god forsaken 4-5-1 formation. Enough is enough, it doesn't work consistently enough and it's fucking boring. It was one thing to use it away to Madrid, but at home every week against some no mark strugglers in the league? Really poor.

I just simply do not understand how a bunch of players can watch a season slip away without so much as a whimper.

[Steve007]

Getting tired of all this "they play entertaining football" bull. Because its not is it? It's "Boring, Boring Arsenal" but in a slightly different vein, at least that old team used to grind outa win to claim three points, rather than just stick it out and hope the back l;ine don't fuck up...

Entertaining? I spent the evening thoroughly cheesed off. The first 10 mins were ok, but then we ran out of ideas. It was an awful gutless performance. The show pony Arshavin can piss off, he's not interested in rolling up his sleeves and getting stuck in. RVP was crap as well, I was very disappointed with him.

We have a pretty shit team that is going nowhere. It would be easier to choose who I'd like to keep rather than choosing who I'd like to see exit the club in the summer as there's so many I'd like to see the back of.

[Steve007]

I just simply do not understand how a bunch of players can watch a season slip away without so much as a whimper.

It's too comfortable for them. There's no real competition for places and most of them are going through the motions. Cesc isn't 100% fit and neither is RVP which doesn't help, but the rest are average players being paid as if they were decorated in honours. Years ago players had to earn good money, so it makes me sick knowing people like Bendtner are taking home £65k a week for doing and achieving nothing.

[Art Vandelay]

To be fair to Arshavin I thought he was actually unlucky to be substituted so early today. He seemed really up for it and when he boned some Blackburn cunt after running the length of the field he got a good cheer. It didn't make much sense to take him off when Nasri had been staggering around the pitch like a disorientated pensioner for about an hour.

I'll single out a player for today as I quite enjoy it. Alex Song, you have been fucking terrible this season but today took the piss. Get your shit together.

[The Fox]

Song didn't look fit - did he get a knock? Utterly bizarre that Arshavin was withdrawn instead of him or Nasri. Unless there was a problem with Arshavin, like he ran for a bit and got knackered, for instance, then that seems like a ridiculous error from the manager.

[Art Vandelay]

On another note, I cannot remember one instance where we've been booed off the pitch at full time. I know a fairly large proportion of our fans are fickle buggers but it's not a great sign. I read on Arseblog and elsewhere that there were a few punch ups amongst our own supporters and a nasty anti-Wenger concensious coursing through the crowd after the game. This run in could be a disaster for all concerned unless someone takes the squad by the scruff of the neck and forces a performance out of them. Who that is remains a mystery at this point.

[Steve007]

On another note, I cannot remember one instance where we've been booed off the pitch at full time. I know a fairly large proportion of our fans are fickle buggers but it's not a great sign. I read on Arseblog and elsewhere that there were a few punch ups amongst our own supporters and a nasty anti-Wenger concensious coursing through the crowd after the game. This run in could be a disaster for all concerned unless someone takes the squad by the scruff of the neck and forces a performance out of them. Who that is remains a mystery at this point.

Discontent has been growing over the last few years and to see the club fuck everything up over the last month has sent a lot of people over the edge. People were screaming all sorts towards the pitch & players at the final whistle. There were a lot of very, very angry people. Can't blame them either, the players had the chance to achieve so much and the fans will not stand for their "casual" attitude. As for Wenger, well I won't repeat what was said but I am sure you can all guess.

[The Fox]

I guess people are extra frustrated because they feel like they've seen it all before with this squad, and that they could've predicted this would happen.

If we bid £23m for Reina last summer then it's not even like we had no money available going into this campaign either, so people won't like that. And then Wenger brings his club captain on to try and take the game by the scruff and make things happen, and he proceeds to stroll about looking largely uninterested and lethargic. People aren't going to like that either.

Something is badly wrong with the group of players we've got here. If it's the best we could do in times of austerity then that's fine, and of course Wenger deserves huge praise for keeping us in the mix. But things have changed and this bunch are just never going to cut it without pruning, investment, and reinforcement.

If the money and desire are there though then that's easy enough to remedy in some degree. I'm inclined to be more worried about the 'tactics' we employ at the moment, with our team set up time and time again to be totally Cesc-centric even when Cesc-less. If he goes this summer and we don't invest in players to enable us to change the way we play, then there'll be a lot more of this tripe next season. We've built a system around him that falls apart when he's not there, but we don't have the personnel to employ a Plan B.

[Dude Ranch]

This run in could be a disaster for all concerned unless someone takes the squad by the scruff of the neck and forces a performance out of them. Who that is remains a mystery at this point.

It should have been Wenger five years ago, it's too late now. I think this mob will have a shock if they move to another Club and have to actually start earning their pay. I can't think of another manager with the patience to stand by them this long without getting physically violent on a weekly basis.

[Art Vandelay]

It's pretty annoying that lots of our players were just strolling about, content to play at half pace as the match, and season, slipped through their fingers. I know it's one of those typical base solutions to all footballing problems in this country, but a bit of hard work never hurt anybody. We've played a lot of football and admittedly the international break didn't help, but you'd think that they'd still have enough to haul themselves over the line. I'm not suggesting their style of play is anything to emulate, but we could learn a lot from someone like Stoke, as hard as that is to say. At least you know their application and commitment is rarely going to be called into question, however misguided that sometimes is. You just don't see much of that within our squad which is disappointing. I'm starting to worry that Wenger has lost the ability to motivate this group of players. I mean, when you look at the team we put out a certain amount of enthusiasm is all it would have taken to beat a very average Blackburn team.

[Steve007]

It should have been Wenger five years ago, it's too late now. I think this mob will have a shock if they move to another Club and have to actually start earning their pay. I can't think of another manager with the patience to stand by them this long without getting physically violent on a weekly basis.

The players would have had yesterday off and today will only be a ‘recuperation’ day. They’ll have a pampering session, massage, rub down, then a spot of lunch followed by some stretching and further optional pampering. Those that don’t want the extra pamering will be free to go home or do whatever they want. The only players reporting to the training ground yesterday would be those with injuries or knocks.

George Graham would have had the lot of them in on Sunday. He’d have told them what they did wrong, he’d have made them watch the match on video and then go through it and point out errors and drill it into players to ensure they don’t do it again. If he was especially pissed off he’d make them train too.

I am not calling for the likes of George Graham or people like him to come back, but the current crop don’t realise how easy they have it. They are not made of the right stuff.

[Daley]

We are stuck though. There is (probably) not a manager in the world that could have got us into the Champions League every year over the last five-six years with this level of investment in the squad. I am far from a Wenger apologist but some people calling for him to go should be very careful what they wish for. When the two teams below you in the league have spent about £100m each since last summer, and your total outlay is in the £10m-£20m region then it is clear what a job he has done.

I am as pissed off as anyone, and also agree that this squad seem to (key word, I don't know what happens behind closed doors and neither does anyone else) have it far too easy and are paid far too much (Diaby and Denilson get £60k a week? where did I see that? In here or did I just imagine it?) but Wenger has to go looking for value from every player he buys and develop his own players. It's almost like he is playing a different game when looking for players. Also these young players have to be given long, lucrative contracts so if the big clubs start sniffing round we get our money's worth. Unfortunately there have been quite a few duds recently.

It's a tough situation.

[Arc'Tan'Gent]

So when will the stadium be payed off then? That can only be an excuse for another year or two, surely?

[Daley]

So when will the stadium be payed off then? That can only be an excuse for another year or two, surely?

Even then our spending probably won't match Man City's and Chelsea's. The financial fair play rules come into play soon but nobody knows if they will really be enforced. Are the top teams really going to be thrown out of European competition if they fail to meet the rules? Even if it is a Real Madrid or a Man Utd?

[anders limpar]

I know it's only a sample of one, but my generally very placid mate (who is six foot five and weighs 18 stone) nearly got into a fight at half time with the prick who stands behind him. I was up in Scotland for a family wedding so watched it in a pub whilst being goaded by skirt-wearing heathens, but there is something very rotten in the state of Denmark. Lot of unhappy people at Arsenal right now.

[Steve007]

I know it's only a sample of one, but my generally very placid mate (who is six foot five and weighs 18 stone) nearly got into a fight at half time with the prick who stands behind him. I was up in Scotland for a family wedding so watched it in a pub whilst being goaded by skirt-wearing heathens, but there is something very rotten in the state of Denmark. Lot of unhappy people at Arsenal right now.

I've been saying this for a while. I've often posted on here with my own observations from match days. Theo often gets booed off (because he's rubbish), ironic cheers when Almunia catches something, boos when Diaby is brought on, cheers when he's taken off, abuse for Bentdner (all his own doing, no sympathy whatsoever) and so on. Now things have gotten a lot worse due to the complete collapse over the last month.

Did anyone notice the empty seats on Saturday? These were down to tickets not being sold & season ticket holders not turning up! There are also 100's of seats owned by "match day experience" companies that sell trips to the Scandinavians, Japanese etc, they are all having trouble selling packages because people don't want to come and watch a team that is going nowhere.

A 'lot of unhappy people at Arsenal' is a severe understatement. It's not going to get much better, especially if Man United do us at home in a few weeks. How the fuck they expect to sell season tickets when Cesc buggers off is a tricky one. They will need to show they mean business by making some early signings, Wenger should be able to do some good business if he gets access to this mythical £30-£40m & the Fabregas cash. Not sure what we'll get for Clichy, maybe only £5m if we're lucky as he's only got 12 months left. So yes, a lot of unhappy people with nothing much to smile about. Oh yes, and the rise in season ticket prices. FFS.

[The Fox]

I'd have thought Clichy would fetch a bit more than £5m, even with a year left. I guess there's still a chance he'll sign on again but probably not at this point. I'd imagine there's a few clubs who'd be interested in Clichy though: Inter, Bayern, maybe even Madrid and Barca if they haven't seen him play in the last few years.

I have a mate who lives in France who reckons it's 100% that we're signing Aly Cissokho, which is almost certainly bollocks but there you go. No doubt we'll cheap out and go with Gibbs as first choice LB with Botelho or some other child as backup, then the child will end up playing 70% of the games due to Gibbs' constant injuries.

[Steve007]

Clichy wants to go to Real Madrid or Barcelona. Mourinho likes him, so Madrid may be an option, but as you said, I've heard Inter are very keen on him. I presume they watched him on the Arsenal 2005-06 season review DVD and haven't bothered to keep tabs on him since.

[Dude Ranch]

Clichy can go, it looked like we had the better left back when Cole first left but Clichy is a liability at the back and offers no final ball or goal threat going forward. Trouble is, I'm not convinced by Gibbs either.

I think Wenger must be utterly sick and I really feel for him but I think he's brought it about regardless of any lack of funds. I kind of hope he goes so we can remember the good times, I simply can't see him winning anything with us again. And it's bonkers to say that when we're second in the league but we should be out in front. And the same things happens year after year after year. Top teams have got us sussed, we've neither the fight nor tactical nous to do anything about it. I would love to see Mourinho come in and see what he'd do at Arsenal. He'd kick their arses, I know that.

[Steve007]

Top teams have got us sussed, we've neither the fight nor tactical nous to do anything about it. I would love to see Mourinho come in and see what he'd do at Arsenal. He'd kick their arses, I know that.

Even average teams have us sussed. So many teams this season have had two banks of 4 that have proven impossible to break down. Apart from Fabregas, we don't have any special players anymore. In years gone by, a bit of magic from Dennis, Pires, Freddie, Henry or even Kanu would win us points but there's no one on the park who can do it now.

I'd absolutely love Mourinho at Arsenal but the club would never pay his sort of wages, let alone bankroll a spending spree that he demands on arrival. Plus Mourinho wouldn't hesitate at clearing the shit out the club. He wants to win & doesn't give a fuck who he upsets to achieve his goals.

[CandyBob]

I'm not absolutely sure what it is people want, and what the problem is.

We are currently lying second, have been to a cup final and got knocked out of two cups by clubs with more money than us (joke refereeing didn't help either). We probably should have won the CC but that's the beauty of the cup I suppose.

With the exception of ManU which English club wouldn't want to be in our position? Chelsea maybe although they could easily go out of the CL this week. Spurs may not even qualify for the CL again. Man City with all of their billions?

Our form has clearly gone and went a few weeks ago really. The cup upsets have completely knocked the wind out of us and I think that is fair enough. For all of our apparent lack of effort on Saturday we still created enough chances to win the game comfortably. The finishing was just shite.

I think it is madness that some fans want Wenger to leave and it's ironic that he is the one who has created these massive expectations in the first place. I can't imagine this obsession with success can be based on what came before him as we had won a few trophies but were hardly prolific. We won a single cup between the double winners in 71 and Graham coming in (how would the people currently going to watch the team have coped then??). The less said about the 50's and 60's the better. We have never been a Real Madrid.

Everything isn't rosy. I was a bit baffled by the formation and tactics on Saturday, especially after the substitutions. Even then both Bendy and Chamakh should have scored. Our back up players have struggled and one or two probably should be moved on in the summer, but has anyone looked at the benches of the other top 6 teams lately? They are not exactly over-flowing with amaze.

Maybe I've seen so much toss in the last 35 years that I count myself extremely lucky to be a supporter but things could be a lot lot worse.

[Dude Ranch]

The cup upsets have completely knocked the wind out of us

For all of our apparent lack of effort on Saturday we still created enough chances to win the game comfortably. The finishing was just shite.

I was a bit baffled by the formation and tactics on Saturday

Our back up players have struggled

Exactly, same old same old. It's very disappointing. This season is a massive chance to win the Prem. The players just don't look like they're up for a run in that previous teams would have relished. We must have less fight in us than any other team in the division. The cup final showed that.

[toythatkills]

Apparently Cesc's been in a car crash. Police have said that nobody was injured but Arsenal's medical staff have ruled him out for up to six weeks.

(They haven't really.)

[CandyBob]

Where was the lack of fight in the final? Birmingham played with 11 men in their box when we had the ball. Hell I've seen Barca struggle this season against teams set out to frustrate them.

Arsenal fans are odd beasts. Arseblog sums it up well today.

[Dude Ranch]

Where was the lack of fight in the final? Birmingham played with 11 men in their box when we had the ball.

They definitely wanted it more. I think everyone was guilty of assuming we just needed to turn up.

Arsenal fans are odd beasts.

I don't agree with this train of thought I'm afraid. It's just as easy to say the 'in Arsene we trust' types are odd. The same flaws and problems crop up every season, if Arsenal fans are wondering whether we need a shake up then that's fair enough IMHO. Blind faith is bollocks. There might not be any money but I do think the Club is happy to just plod along knowing season tickets will be renewed regardless. That's a recipe for disaster.

You have to applaud the consistency in getting into the CL every year etc. but that aside we might as well finish mid table. If we're making money then capitalise on it, paying off a stadium only to see it half empty in three years would be a calamity.

[The Fox]

The thing is, we obviously haven't seen much squad churn in recent years. But this summer there seems to be a whole host of players who might be sold or go on loan, for a variety of reasons:

Almunia - Surely a dead cert to go. For all his pathetic form I actually feel pretty sorry for him and feel he's been shoddily treated by Wenger. The ironic cheers when he makes a save are pretty horrible.

Squillaci - Probably won't leave, but we can but hope. Not up to it at all and I've already covered the reasons why. If he was called on less often it'd be fine, but with our injury record he ends up playing a lot and it's just no good.

Clichy - Seems like he wants out. I have mixed feelings on it really. I just hope that we do replace and him and don't just rely on perma-crock Gibbs.

Denilson - Has been used less often this season, normally as an emergency holding player, where he has been utterly terrible. And as a more attacking midfielder he has about eight players ahead of him in the pecking order. Will surely go on loan, at least.

Rosicky - Understandably hasn't been the same since his long lay off. I'd be inclined to keep him around as he seems ok with a bit part roll, but he has played less often this season and with Ramsey back will probably play even less next year, so perhaps he'll be moved on to trim the wage bill.

Diaby - See Rosicky, albeit with the added caveat that he can't seem to stay fit for more than a fortnight. He is of course a lot younger than Sicky, and is probably on less money. I expect him to stay but wouldn't stake my life on it.

Fabregas - Not sure I need to say much here. Whether he stays or goes will probably depend on Barca's coffers, and whether we privately promised last summer to let him go if he stayed on for one more year.

Arshavin - Has looked more up for it in flashes recently, but has generally looked totally fed up this season. Wenger hauled him off on Saturday even though he was doing ok, which seems to indicate that he's very much out of favour with the manager. Probably on big money too.

Bendtner - Has featured less often this season than last, and very rarely at centre forward. A player with his ego surely won't stand for such a minor roll forever.

Now I'm not saying all those players will leave. But you could put pretty persuasive arguments for a lot of them leaving, of their own volition or the manager's. And that's without mentioning Vela and a few of the others who have been on loan already. So maybe we'll see a bit of a shakeup, perhaps a bigger one than Wenger would ideally like. At the very least, you'd imagine that in an ideal world he'd hang on to Cesc, Clichy and Bendtner, but there's a good chance that all three will want out in the summer.

[CandyBob]

They definitely wanted it more. I think everyone was guilty of assuming we just needed to turn up.

I don't agree with this train of thought I'm afraid. It's just as easy to say the 'in Arsene we trust' types are odd. The same flaws and problems crop up every season, if Arsenal fans are wondering whether we need a shake up then that's fair enough IMHO. Blind faith is bollocks. There might not be any money but I do think the Club is happy to just plod along knowing season tickets will be renewed regardless. That's a recipe for disaster.

You have to applaud the consistency in getting into the CL every year etc. but that aside we might as well finish mid table. If we're making money then capitalise on it, paying off a stadium only to see it half empty in three years would be a calamity.

I'm not in either camp, I just know that I have been lucky enough to have been a supporter through the clubs most golden period since the thirties and the club is still run by the man that brought that to us.

I agree with some of the basics. We do need a refresh and a couple of players need to go. Some of the stuff I have read and heard in the last couple of days is preposterous though.

I think it might happen in the summer as well. It's very rare for Arsene to drag someone off at half time (Denilson) and Clicy (although who people think we will get to replace him I don't know) is having contract talk problems.

Isn't there a point that if the stadium is half empty in three years, they weren't supporters worthy of the ticket anyway?

[Dude Ranch]

Isn't there a point that if the stadium is half empty in three years, they weren't supporters worthy of the ticket anyway?

No, not at all in my opinion. The fans are the Club, they are football. Why pay more than a grand (and constantly rising) for a season ticket to watch above average players at the Arsenal? Demanding loyalty at that price and in these financial times is a big ask.

My opinion. I love Wenger, I'd kill you for a two hour chat with him. I think he's a wonderful manager and a wonderful man, he's unique. I had more than ten years as a season ticket holder watching dream football and you can't take that away. I think we set the standard though and as usual we never capitalised on it. The new stadium was a miraculous move, making it happen was against the odds really and at a financial cost that we knew would be a burden but we haven't seen any benefit from it whatsoever. We seem to be treading water and waiting for some big shift that will see us in the box seat. It might never happen and we've lost focus on the now which is what the fans are worried about. Fuck tomorrow, it might never come.

Also, do I think all Clubs should be run like ours? Yes, probably. But I think that's a stubborn and unrealistic approach unfortunately. We don't even seem to aim for the middle ground.

We owe so much to George Graham, he genuinely turned the Club around and put down the foundations for subsequent success. He did it on a shoestring and I think the board think it can always be done that way. We've never won back to backs and the simple reason is, again IMHO, that we don't strike while the iron is hot like ManYoo have always done. The Club is at the same time brilliantly run and woefully complacent.