Arsenal

[Rev]

The trouble with JET going is that everything (does well in reserves, doesn't when on loan) might suggest that he does want to be at Arsenal and that being given a genuine chance at the first team might be the answer to his attitude problems. It might be laziness and partying, but it might be eagerness to the point of impatience. That isn't that much better, but like with Vela I do think he should be given a proper chance first - and unlike Vela (we're not exactly short of tiny attacking midfielders who fall over, I'll admit) JET does want to be on the pitch in a role that is needed.

I just think that you don't find out about players until you put them on the real stage for a few matches.

[carlito]

Fuck that.

Earn your breaks.

If they aren't hungry enough to take every chance at that age then it hardly bodes well for the future.

[Jonathan_Kerr]

I assume everyone's seen that video going around of all 226 Thierry Henry goals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTebxpuryvI&feature=youtu.be

It's 14 mins long.

I quite liked no 157 against Charlton.

[Art Vandelay]

The Grauniad have reported that Eboue has agreed to join Galatasaray for £4m. No pressure on Jenkinson then. We'll be looking thread bare unless we get a few bodies in too. For better or worse some of the people leaving have a lot of games under their belt.

[Rev]

Fuck that.

Earn your breaks.

If they aren't hungry enough to take every chance at that age then it hardly bodes well for the future.

I disagree. I don't understand how Arsenal can continue to be:

1) A team focussed on youth players.

2) A team that has only managed to bring through 2 youth players to a deserved first team place in the last 5 years. One of which the work was done by Barcelona.

Something needs to change and the only thing I can see as an option is getting more of them on the pitch more regularly like-what Dalglish did last season.

[Art Vandelay]

I literally cannot think of one player Arsenal have let slip through the net. Some decent young players have gone on to have Premiership careers, but no-one who if they came back would improve our current team by any significant measure.

[Rev]

OK, in the last 5 years "youth system Arsenal" have produced one player. That definitely sounds better.

I don't know though - I do think that playing at a top club in addition to their ability to have a decent Premiership career would make them significantly better. Bentley, Larsson, Pennant...They might not be perfect but I'd rather have a slightly Arsenaled version of them than Walcott and Bendtner being responsible for the right wing. I'm not saying they'd be worth buying back and I know that two of them had "quite" significant issues...but still.

[toythatkills]

I literally cannot think of one player Arsenal have let slip through the net. Some decent young players have gone on to have Premiership careers, but no-one who if they came back would improve our current team by any significant measure.

You don't think this is a problem? Nearly every single player growing up at Arsenal isn't good enough to play for them. To me that suggests either an issue with realising whether a kid has potential, or an issue with the kids not being coached properly.

Pick your best Arsenal 11 right now, how many of those were brought up "the Arsenal way?" Two? For all Wenger's insistence that he doesn't want to "kill" his young players, pretty much the only decent players Arsenal have are the ones bought much later into their development.

[Rev]

Hey! Let's look on the brightside - perhaps a few more of the good players will go soon so we can rely on the kids who otherwise aren't good enough!

[Art Vandelay]

You don't think this is a problem? Nearly every single player growing up at Arsenal isn't good enough to play for them. To me that suggests either an issue with realising whether a kid has potential, or an issue with the kids not being coached properly.

Pick your best Arsenal 11 right now, how many of those were brought up "the Arsenal way?" Two? For all Wenger's insistence that he doesn't want to "kill" his young players, pretty much the only decent players Arsenal have are the ones bought much later into their development.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, just that I don't think giving more young players first team opportunities will make them capable of consistently starting for us. I just used the fact that no-one has gone on to have an amazing career since they left us as a good indicator that we are spotting the right players.

The youth system at Arsenal makes a lot of money which I suppose is it's main purpose. We also have the luxury of a top level scouting network which reduces the reliance on finding the next Messi kicking a ball around in North London somewhere - lots of players have come through but as you say it's where we've bought them at 16 or whatever. I don't see the problem.

[Steve007]

I literally cannot think of one player Arsenal have let slip through the net. Some decent young players have gone on to have Premiership careers, but no-one who if they came back would improve our current team by any significant measure.

I'd agree with you about the youth players, but Wenger's judgement in transfer market is appalling. Do you know he turned down Petr Cech before Chelsea came in for him? I think he was offered to Wenger for about £1m but Wenger didn't fancy him as he had Almunia. I could fucking cry.

As for this stupid youth system, the club cherry pick players and then give them a bit of spit & polish before claiming they produced them. Pennent (mentioned above) was a product of Notts County! We signed him when he was about 15 I think. Even Jack Wilshere was taken from Luton Town!

[Art Vandelay]

I think Wilshere was only with Luton for a couple of months when we was 9. He's about as Arsenal as you can get. Pennant was an odd case. He had, and probably still has, a glorious amount of talent but was let down badly by his parents. I've no problem with us buying young players from other teams as it is usually mutually beneficial for both parties.

I think Petr Cech was just a case of us struggling with a work permit. There's loads of cases where teams could have signed players but didn't. We were in for Ronaldo years before he joined Man Utd, Messi was nearly a double signing with Fabregas etc. but I don't think Wenger is bad at buying players by any stretch of the imagination.

[Daley]

Also the youth system is a bit of a lottery. You take years producing 20 average players to find the one gem. While some clubs have consistently produced good young players its tough to balance giving them first team games and trying to get results.

Going back to JET leaving, if you don't shine in every game you play, in every league then you have to ask questions. Sure it would be easier at Arsenal with good players around you. But if you go on loan to Cardiff and stroll around like this is all beneath you then I would say you don't have the attitude needed to play for Arsenal. (Wilshere had a very good spell at Bolton before coming back to us don't forget.)

[carlito]

Wenger's judgement in the transfer Market is appalling?

I mean seriously dude, what are you saying...

Tell me a manager who has a better hit to miss rate.

Give me a team who develops youth prospects to real players better than us.

[Petrousgyre]

We were in for Ronaldo years before he joined Man Utd, Messi was nearly a double signing with Fabregas etc. but I don't think Wenger is bad at buying players by any stretch of the imagination.

Ronaldo was as close to signed as its possible to be apparently, it was only a pre-season match v United and a doubled bid from Ferguson. It's conceivable that if Wenger wasn't saving every penny for the stadium we could have had a team with Ronaldo, Messi, Fabregas and Drogba which is frustrating. Then if you look in the long term, we'd have doubtless won a few more trophies but would still be struggling with limited revenue from Highbury whilst trying to pay some astronomical wages. Pretty sure Wenger made the right choice.

[Rev]

Give me a team who develops youth prospects to real players better than us.

Manchester United? Everton? Liverpool? West Ham? Barcelona? The only team I can think of so involved with youth players that does a (significantly) worse job is Chelsea.

I don't agree with Wenger being appalling in the transfer market though, at all. When Ronaldo et al were considering joining Arsenal were either invincible or believably linked to it still. We'd be offered everyone. And the players he brought in before that were of such a high standard it is terrifying.

Managing that with less money (and more importantly, other teams having insane amounts of money) and less trophies is infinitely harder.

[CandyBob]

I thought the Ronaldo thing was based on Queros being at ManU.

I don't think the youth system at Arsenal is any different to any other club. Out of 1000 young players, probably only a very very small % of them will be good enough to play for a top 4 club. I guess they hope that every now and again a Wilshere will come along.

Wenger must have made more profit than any other manager on buying for peanuts and selling for millions. I know at the moment words like profit and business are anathema to Arsenal fans but it has helped us get to this point with the stadium and financial stability.

[CandyBob]

Manchester United? Everton? Liverpool? West Ham? Barcelona? The only team I can think of so involved with youth players that does a (significantly) worse job is Chelsea.

I don't agree with Wenger being appalling in the transfer market though, at all. When Ronaldo et al were considering joining Arsenal were either invincible or believably linked to it still. We'd be offered everyone. And the players he brought in before that were of such a high standard it is terrifying.

Managing that with less money (and more importantly, other teams having insane amounts of money) and less trophies is infinitely harder.

Realistically how many young players are coming out of those clubs (aside from Barcelona) who are good enough for a top PL team? ManU had a bonanza of young talent come through in the 90's and West Ham used to be well known for their youth development but now?

[Rev]

Realistically how many young players are coming out of those clubs (aside from Barcelona) who are good enough for a top PL team? ManU had a bonanza of young talent come through in the 90's and West Ham used to be well known for their youth development but now?

Rodwell and Coleman at Everton, Morrison, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverly (plus loads of young, if not youth players, like Fabio, Rafael, Smalling, Jones) at Man Utd, Liverpool have Kelly, Wilson, Spearing (plus Shelvey). West Ham have Sears, Collison and Fry now. There's a possibility that none of the West Ham lot will make it, but they're good players who are almost certainly going to benefit from being in the first team in the Championship. Also down there, Southampton made Walcott, Bale and now have Chamberlain.

Put those all together with a couple of established players and in 5 years you can win the league, I'm sure.

[Petrousgyre]

Realistically how many young players are coming out of those clubs (aside from Barcelona) who are good enough for a top PL team? ManU had a bonanza of young talent come through in the 90's and West Ham used to be well known for their youth development but now?

Exactly so, developing young players is a bit of lottery - United had a glut of talent a few years back but nothing since, Barca have an embarrassment of riches at the moment but it's by no means guaranteed to last. And there's no question Wenger has developed young talent talent even if they're not English and been at the club since they were in nappies.

[hauk]

Something needs to change and the only thing I can see as an option is getting more of them on the pitch more regularly like-what Dalglish did last season.

I don't mind people questioning Wenger's policy with Youth team players over the years. I can think of some players, who maybe they wouldn't have been first team stalwarts but they could certainly have done a job as squad players. I'm thinking of people like Upson, Pennant, Taylor, Bentley, Sidwell. However to suggest that Wenger needs to take any kind of lead from Kenny Dalglish, that I take issue with!

[carlito]

Rev you really do talk some crazy don't you.

Did you just Google random young players there?

It actually boggles my mind talking to you.

[Rev]

Rev you really do talk some crazy don't you.

Did you just Google random young players there?

It actually boggles my mind talking to you.

I really don't think there is anyone obscure there.

[CandyBob]

Rodwell and Coleman at Everton, Morrison, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverly (plus loads of young, if not youth players, like Fabio, Rafael, Smalling, Jones) at Man Utd, Liverpool have Kelly, Wilson, Spearing (plus Shelvey). West Ham have Sears, Collison and Fry now. There's a possibility that none of the West Ham lot will make it, but they're good players who are almost certainly going to benefit from being in the first team in the Championship. Also down there, Southampton made Walcott, Bale and now have Chamberlain.

Put those all together with a couple of established players and in 5 years you can win the league, I'm sure.

Are they any better than our efforts though? Wilshere is imo far better than all of those with the greatest respect to them. Gibbs also looks a cut above if he can stay fit and the likes of Frimpong, Eastmond, Miquel and Afobe all look to have great potential. Remember our youth team have won the Premier Academy League two years in a row.

Outside of the club and fans Arsenal don't seem to get enough credit for young talent. Maybe because the stigma of only playing foreign players still hangs over the club.

I really hope Frimpong makes it personally. Not only are there a ton of great fucking songs there waiting to happen, he seems a real monster albeit a bit all over the place at times.

[carlito]

I really don't think there is anyone obscure there.

It's not obscure, it's just rubbish.

Collison?

Freddy fucking Sears?

You are comparing them to the talents Wenger has brought though. Come on man.

Those players aren't as good as half of the failed Arsenal ones.

[Rev]

Are they any better than our efforts though? Wilshere is imo far better than all of those with the greatest respect to them. Gibbs also looks a cut above if he can stay fit and the likes of Frimpong, Eastmond, Miquel and Afobe all look to have great potential. Remember our youth team have won the Premier Academy League two years in a row.

Outside of the club and fans Arsenal don't seem to get enough credit for young talent. Maybe because the stigma of only playing foreign players still hangs over the club.

I think they're more likely to achieve than ours are to be honest. Aside from probably a few of the Man Utd players they're all going to get a look in/regular starting position in their first teams. Although Wilshere is miles ahead of all of them. One or two more seasons like last and he'll be rapidly heading towards best in the world lists.

But that's not really my point - none of those teams make such a fuss about their reliance on youth, not just now but for the future too. Arsenal do, the players down there need to be able to come into the first team squad and I don't think enough is being done to help that happen.

It's not obscure, it's just rubbish.

Collison?

Freddy fucking Sears?

You are comparing them to the talents Wenger has brought though. Come on man.

Those players aren't as good as half of the failed Arsenal ones.

I did say that the West Ham ones might not make it but are likely to benefit from playing in the Championship for a year, didn't I? And West Ham were really on the original list for Lampard, Cole etc.

[carlito]

Oh man, never mind dude.

[BlinkyBear]

Morrison, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverly (plus loads of young, if not youth players, like Fabio, Rafael, Smalling, Jones) at Man Utd, Liverpool have Kelly, Wilson, Spearing (plus Shelvey).

How many of these were 'bought in'? You can't say that Wenger hasn't developed through the youth system apart from Jack and say that we 'bought' Cesc and then try to claim that Man Utd have developed Smalling, Jones et al and Shelvey et al at Liverpool.

[Rev]

How many of these were 'bought in'? You can't say that Wenger hasn't developed through the youth system apart from Jack and say that we 'bought' Cesc and then try to claim that Man Utd have developed Smalling, Jones et al and Shelvey et al at Liverpool.

That's why they're in brackets, rather than the main list...

[CandyBob]

But that's not really my point - none of those teams make such a fuss about their reliance on youth, not just now but for the future too. Arsenal do, the players down there need to be able to come into the first team squad and I don't think enough is being done to help that happen.

That's never going to happen though is it. I don't think its possible for a club to be able to continually produce enough good talent to come up through the ranks and into the first team and do a sufficient job. Lighting struck with ManU and West Ham were very good at it way back when and according to Guardiola, Barca have a Messi cloning factory. Realistically all we or anyone can hope for is a Wilshere every now and again.

Arsene has invested in youth but not to the exception of everything else. In fact if you look at the strongest 15 players give or take, more than half of them have been brought in at 20+ years of age. Arshavin, Nasri, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Chamakh, Rosicky, RvP, Fabianski and now Gervinho. Wenger has used age as a tactic to deflect criticism away from the team but over the last 2-3 years he has slowly added 20 somethings until they make up the bulk of the top players and mixed them in with some of the youngsters good enough.