Arsenal

[AlwaysBeClosing]

How many of these were 'bought in'? You can't say that Wenger hasn't developed through the youth system apart from Jack and say that we 'bought' Cesc and then try to claim that Man Utd have developed Smalling, Jones et al and Shelvey et al at Liverpool.

Realistically how many young players are coming out of those clubs (aside from Barcelona) who are good enough for a top PL team? ManU had a bonanza of young talent come through in the 90's and West Ham used to be well known for their youth development but now?

Cleverley, Morrison, De Laet, Welbeck, Ronaldo, Gibson, Evans (x2), Rafael & Fabio, Pogba, Obertan, Macheda, Tunnicliffe.. there's a lot through and coming through that wouldn't look out of place in the top ten, if not the top five.

[carlito]

What the actual fuck are people talking about here?

West Ham were so good at bringing through their golden generation they got relegated with them. They've been shit for fucking years with all their great players.

Since when has 20 not been young? That's why they call the England youth team the "Under-21s". That is why it's acceptable to play 23 year olds in this youth team because, you guessed it, they are young.

That's why the "Young Player of the Year" award is given to players under 23.

Fabregas, Messi, Wilshire and co are not the benchmark for the age bracket you should be expecting to break into the first team of a Champions League side - they are massive overachievers, they are freaks.

[carlito]

Cleverley, Morrison, De Laet, Welbeck, Ronaldo, Gibson, Evans (x2), Rafael & Fabio, Pogba, Obertan, Macheda, Tunnicliffe.. there's a lot through and coming through that wouldn't look out of place in the top ten, if not the top five.

Let's see, outside of Rafael + Fabio, how many games they get this season shall we?

[phresh]

Evans and Welbeck will probably see a few and i'd like Cleverley to get some but half the others probably won't be at the club next season. I don't think Cleverley joined until he was around 15 so depending on how you define developed at the club he could possibly be excluded from Rev's list.

[exwhyzed]

Youth development isn't really about producing the next Ronaldo etc regularly for me. When one does come along its great, but it's about consistantly filling out the squad with the likes of O'Shea and Brown who can do a job when called upon.

[Dude Ranch]

I think we've brought through fuck all of any note, Wilshere aside. The youth system is shit really, at the top level it's given us nothing. A million for JET, fucking woop dee doo. All these nearly players are dribs and drabs here and there that add up to two or three months worth of wages for proper players. Ashley Cole was the last player we actually properly produced that benefited us. If anyone can suggest someone else before, in recent history, or after I'll post you a lolly. And Wenger might have bought some good players but he's bought some absolute dog shit as well, especially recently, so much so that you could argue he's paralysed by fear of failure and unable to bring himself to spend big now.

[carlito]

Idiot.

[Art Vandelay]

Lansbury is joining Norwich tomorrow apparently. Talk about a fire sale. What's the point of loan deals if the player performs well, displays a good attitude then you immediately sell them? It's a legitimate question I think.

[mop]

Lansbury is joining Norwich tomorrow apparently. Talk about a fire sale. What's the point of loan deals if the player performs well, displays a good attitude then you immediately sell them? It's a legitimate question I think.

[CandyBob]

Cleverley, Morrison, De Laet, Welbeck, Ronaldo, Gibson, Evans (x2), Rafael & Fabio, Pogba, Obertan, Macheda, Tunnicliffe.. there's a lot through and coming through that wouldn't look out of place in the top ten, if not the top five.

I'd be very surprised if any of them make a career playing for a top PL team in the future apart from the twins. Some of them also were hardly brought through the ranks.

[toythatkills]

Lansbury is joining Norwich tomorrow apparently. Talk about a fire sale. What's the point of loan deals if the player performs well, displays a good attitude then you immediately sell them? It's a legitimate question I think.

What? I thought Lansbury was the one real chance of getting someone coming into the first team next year. Even Wenger said that was the plan. Ugh. Oh well, he's got Arsenal DNA, if he does well at Norwich we can beg for him back for £3.40.

"If Ipswich are going to sign an Arsenal player, WE BLOODY WELL ARE AS WELL."

[AlwaysBeClosing]

I'd be very surprised if any of them make a career playing for a top PL team in the future apart from the twins. Some of them also were hardly brought through the ranks.

Such as? (re: being brought through the ranks)

Evans is already playing fairly regularly, his brother may well make it. Welbeck, Cleverley and Gibson have played at PL level and will be breaking into the United first team proper this year. De Laet is on a season-long loan at Norwich to get PL experience - Morrison is the next best thing since whatever.

[BlinkyBear]

Lansbury is joining Norwich tomorrow apparently. Talk about a fire sale. What's the point of loan deals if the player performs well, displays a good attitude then you immediately sell them? It's a legitimate question I think.

That i'd agree with. From what I've seen and heard he's a quality squad player (for us) who will push and demand a place where possible. It's his desire for a place in the team that says to me that he's worth keeping for the pressure on others if nothing else. On a massively anecdotal point, my current desktop is him celebrating scoring his goal against Spurs in the Carling Cup this year and the look on his face is pure screaming joy-he's absolutely loving scoring that goal and looks he's determined to show it-compare that against the way the likes of Diaby have scored and then celebrated goals this year. A point that is unfounded and weak in evidence, I grant you, but when I see Lansbury playing I see commitment and desire, when I see Diaby I see a cold technical ability and when passion comes into it it's for the wrong reasons. As an aside, it's a pretty well known fact the picture I've got as my desktop is also a print at the Arsenal academy as it features Gibbs, Wilshere and Lansbury celebrating in the same shot, showing that not only do we produce quality players, but that they're capable of beating our rivals when it matters.

If Lansbury goes I'll be annoyed. I heard that he was off on loan for 6 months and that I'd be fine with for many reasons, but to sell him would be a shame. The question is though, would he in the long term further our team? If I'm being cold, probably not and this is unfortunately how our manager operates. From an emotional point of view, I want him to stay, as a calculating 'manager', I think he should go. Which leads me on to the 'rant'.

I'm not going to bother with the Man Utd fans who seem to be suggesting that their club made Ronaldo what he is just because he played at their club for a few successful years and rather have a look at why on earth some people think that our youth system isn't successful. The first thing you need to consider is what constitutes being successful? In the modern era of football, it seems that the only way to be successful is to win every single trophy that you possibly can: Barcelona, for example are a successful team because they have won a lot of trophies in the past couple of seasons, whereas Real Madrid are not successful are not because they have only won a few trophies here and there. If you're applying the same wholly unachievable expectations to our youth team, or any other for that matter, then of course our youth system is a failure. But if you're sensible enough to consider taking a 6 year old of some talent and nurturing them into playing professional football at some level a sense of success then you can get to fuck if you think our academy is bollocks. Benik Afobe, for example, joined the club at aged 6. He is a Youth Cup winner, FA Premier League Academy winner, represented his country at 4 age levels, won the U-17 Euro Cup with England and spent last year on loan at Huddersfield. For someone isn't even 19 yet, I'd say that's successful. Will he make it to play for the Arsenal first team and then help us to win major honours in the way that Messi or Xavi have? I doubt it. But then a youth academy is a lottery. A chance to gamble in the hope that it pays off. An opportunity to make some money and a way of helping to develop the club. JET goes for £1million to Ipswich. Does that mean he's a flop and another Arsenal youth player who didn't help us win a trophy or £1million that allows us to try and bring through another Ray Parlour, Ashley Cole or Jack Wilshere? These players are 1 in a million. Claiming that the West Ham youth team at that produced Freddie Sears, or that the Liverpool academy is more successful than Arsenal's because Martin Kelly played some first team games last year is such an undeveloped argument and highly dismissive of the point of an academy. Barcelona have their Paedo Barn (or at least they did) which has produced the most incredible talent, once in a generation if not less, that unfortunately has shed the spotlight on to other Academies and made them look useless in comparison.

I've now just reailsed that being drunk having come in from the pub after a win at the quiz I've lost my train of thought. Which seems a shame as I thought I was on to something here.

Essentially, our academy is incredible and just because the players don't make it to our first team (one of the top 10 clubs in Europe) doesn't mean the academy has failed. That and Man Utd fans are generally idiots.

[Rev]

That i'd agree with. From what I've seen and heard he's a quality squad player (for us) who will push and demand a place where possible. It's his desire for a place in the team that says to me that he's worth keeping for the pressure on others if nothing else. On a massively anecdotal point, my current desktop is him celebrating scoring his goal against Spurs in the Carling Cup this year and the look on his face is pure screaming joy-he's absolutely loving scoring that goal and looks he's determined to show it-compare that against the way the likes of Diaby have scored and then celebrated goals this year. A point that is unfounded and weak in evidence, I grant you, but when I see Lansbury playing I see commitment and desire, when I see Diaby I see a cold technical ability and when passion comes into it it's for the wrong reasons. As an aside, it's a pretty well known fact the picture I've got as my desktop is also a print at the Arsenal academy as it features Gibbs, Wilshere and Lansbury celebrating in the same shot, showing that not only do we produce quality players, but that they're capable of beating our rivals when it matters.

If Lansbury goes I'll be annoyed. I heard that he was off on loan for 6 months and that I'd be fine with for many reasons, but to sell him would be a shame. The question is though, would he in the long term further our team? If I'm being cold, probably not and this is unfortunately how our manager operates. From an emotional point of view, I want him to stay, as a calculating 'manager', I think he should go. Which leads me on to the 'rant'.

I'm not going to bother with the Man Utd fans who seem to be suggesting that their club made Ronaldo what he is just because he played at their club for a few successful years and rather have a look at why on earth some people think that our youth system isn't successful. The first thing you need to consider is what constitutes being successful? In the modern era of football, it seems that the only way to be successful is to win every single trophy that you possibly can: Barcelona, for example are a successful team because they have won a lot of trophies in the past couple of seasons, whereas Real Madrid are not successful are not because they have only won a few trophies here and there. If you're applying the same wholly unachievable expectations to our youth team, or any other for that matter, then of course our youth system is a failure. But if you're sensible enough to consider taking a 6 year old of some talent and nurturing them into playing professional football at some level a sense of success then you can get to fuck if you think our academy is bollocks. Benik Afobe, for example, joined the club at aged 16. He is a Youth Cup winner, FA Premier League Academy winner, represented his country at 4 age levels, won the U-17 Euro Cup with England and spent last year on loan at Huddersfield. For someone isn't even 19 yet, I'd say that's successful. Will he make it to play for the Arsenal first team and then help us to win major honours in the way that Messi or Xavi have? I doubt it. But then a youth academy is a lottery. A chance to gamble in the hope that it pays off. An opportunity to make some money and a way of helping to develop the club. JET goes for £1million to Ipswich. Does that mean he's a flop and another Arsenal youth player who didn't help us win a trophy or £1million that allows us to try and bring through another Ray Parlour, Ashley Cole or Jack Wilshere? These players are 1 in a million. Claiming that the West Ham youth team at that produced Freddie Sears, or that the Liverpool academy is more successful than Arsenal's because Martin Kelly played some first team games last year is such an undeveloped argument and highly dismissive of the point of an academy. Barcelona have their Paedo Barn (or at least they did) which has produced the most incredible talent, once in a generation if not less, that unfortunately has shed the spotlight on to other Academies and made them look useless in comparison.

I've now just reailsed that being drunk having come in from the pub after a win at the quiz I've lost my train of thought. Which seems a shame as I thought I was on to something here.

Essentially, our academy is incredible and just because the players don't make it to our first team (one of the top 10 clubs in Europe) doesn't mean the academy has failed. That and if Man Utd fans are generally idiots.

That wasn't the argument though, dude. I didn't say that the players in the Arsenal academy are worse (or better), I said that they aren't making it into the squad with enough regularity and that other teams are bringing through as many, if not more players. We're a team based on young players* that resents giving a chance to our own potential players until they reach the point where they're better just leaving.

Imagine you're a youth under Hodgson or Benitez - you're playing well, and you can even see some of your team-mates are playing even better and you all get utterly ignored. Then suddenly a new manager comes in and has a hole at left-back, so the left-back you've been playing with is suddenly there in the premiership doing a job. You know if you perform well and a couple of injuries strike the first team you'll be in. That's got to motivate you to be as good as you can be. Seeing Diaby and Arshavin shuffled to fill whatever position when injuries strikes probably doesn't have the same motivational factor.

Maybe they get on the pitch and they're shit. Ship them off to Norwich. But every now and again there will be surprises - Hernandez at Man Utd. Obviously he was good, but no-one expected him to be that good - but Premiership turf brought it out of him. There will be players in our youth system that could happen to, but at the current rate we'll never find out unless they're clearly world-beaters from the offset.

*Or claim to be.

[carlito]

Lansbury can also teach us how to dougie, teach us, teach us how to dougie.

[SeanR]

I'd be very surprised if any of them make a career playing for a top PL team in the future apart from the twins. Some of them also were hardly brought through the ranks.

does sunderland count?

seanr.gif

[Dude Ranch]

Idiot.

Go on then, who have we brought through recently? Wilshere. Name another. Who's setting your world alight? Who's next out of the stable? The production line of talent simply isn't there (Wilshere would've happened anywhere). The academy existing simply to fund itself but never produce anything of note further up the line is bizarre. We've had success at youth level but it hasn't translated into anything. And further to that our transfer dealings are perennially disappointing, we've got players who want out and young players who are no good to us stuck on massive wages. Didn't JET spend £100k on a Mercedes McLaren ages ago? How the fuck was he earning that kind of money? Now we've sold him on for £1m to Ipswich lol.

[CandyBob]

Such as? (re: being brought through the ranks)

Evans is already playing fairly regularly, his brother may well make it. Welbeck, Cleverley and Gibson have played at PL level and will be breaking into the United first team proper this year. De Laet is on a season-long loan at Norwich to get PL experience - Morrison is the next best thing since whatever.

Rafael and Fabio aren't a product of the ManU youth system are they? Ronaldo wasn't either as much like Fabregas, he was pretty much the finished article when he arrived. De Laet signed a couple of seasons ago?

Much like some of the Arsenal players who came through the youth system, the players you have mentioned will probably get games in the Carling Cup or when needed through injuries but the bulk of the ManU first 11 is made up of experienced players who they payed millions for. There's nothing wrong with that and its not a criticism, I'm just saying that the ManU youth system is not really any more productive than Arsenal's.

does sunderland count?

seanr.gif

No, not really.

[phresh]

Rafael and Fabio aren't a product of the ManU youth system are they? Ronaldo wasn't either as much like Fabregas, he was pretty much the finished article when he arrived. De Laet signed a couple of seasons ago?

I think because people only tend to recognise Youth players when they get into their late teens it's easy to miss that an awful lot of players haven't been at the club that long. Most people would say that Fletcher is a product at the Academy but he only joined at 15 (or 16) so is barely any more of a product of the system than the twins (who also signed at 16). The same applies to many more at both clubs I imagine.

I have no idea why you think that both Fabregas and Ronaldo were nearly the finished articles when they joined the clubs, neither were anywhere near that.

With Arsenal it would be easy to argue that with a relative propensity for throwing away leads there is simply no 'good' time to give a young player a few minutes on the pitch.

[CandyBob]

Go on then, who have we brought through recently? Wilshere. Name another. Who's setting your world alight? Who's next out of the stable? The production line of talent simply isn't there (Wilshere would've happened anywhere). The academy existing simply to fund itself but never produce anything of note further up the line is bizarre. We've had success at youth level but it hasn't translated into anything. And further to that our transfer dealings are perennially disappointing, we've got players who want out and young players who are no good to us stuck on massive wages. Didn't JET spend £100k on a Mercedes McLaren ages ago? How the fuck was he earning that kind of money? Now we've sold him on for £1m to Ipswich lol.

You make that sound like its a massive criticism of Arsenal but how is it any different to anyone else. Who else is producing even a reasonalbe amount of young talent through their youth system that ends up as regular first team players amongst the big clubs? No one.

The youth academy is for the exact purpose of finding a Wilshere in amongst the ok players. That's the reality. If there were enough players out there with the talent to come up through the ranks at Arsenal or ManU and be the next Wilshere then surely teams wouldn't be spending what they spend.

As for transfer dealings. Well, I'm assuming you are talking about the incomings as Arsene has made absolute fortunes on bringing players for peanuts and selling them for millions. He has also been proven right so many times about when a player is either not up to it ability or attitude wise or have had their best years and moved them on, normally for a profit.

[Rev]

Throwing away leads is often complacency though. More competition in the first team can't worsen that.

EDIT: @phresh

[Jonathan_Kerr]

I think the hallmark of a 'successful' club is the ability to sign big name players. After all, there can only be one winner at the end of the season so judging purely on winning trophies is a bit shortsighted. No one really seems to care about anything at than the CL and the PL.

That said, big name players no longer seem to desire playing for Arsenal.

[CandyBob]

I think because people only tend to recognise Youth players when they get into their late teens it's easy to miss that an awful lot of players haven't been at the club that long. Most people would say that Fletcher is a product at the Academy but he only joined at 15 (or 16) so is barely any more of a product of the system than the twins (who also signed at 16). The same applies to many more at both clubs I imagine.

I have no idea why you think that both Fabregas and Ronaldo were nearly the finished articles when they joined the clubs, neither were anywhere near that.

With Arsenal it would be easy to argue that with a relative propensity for throwing away leads there is simply no 'good' time to give a young player a few minutes on the pitch.

As an Arsenal fan I'm making assumptions about Ronaldo for which I apologise although I do seem to remember him making an impact pretty much immediately.

Fabregas is a product of Barcelona. There are many videos of him and Messi doing their stuff in the Barca youth. He came to Arsenal with pretty much everything he needed to get where he is today. I'm sure Wenger has influenced him greatly but the ability was already there. He is just one of those freaks of nature like Messi, Rooney or Wilshere where they are almost born with it.

[CandyBob]

I think the hallmark of a 'successful' club is the ability to sign big name players. After all, there can only be one winner at the end of the season.

That said, big name players no longer seem to desire playing for Arsenal.

I think the hallmark of a successful club is a balance between buying wisely and developing players, which I think ManU for example try to do (although they do have the money to spend £30m if its needed).

Arsene has stated on many occasions that agents are knocking on his door every day with players wanting to play for us. Players like Messi? Probably not but its mostly about the money now and why would you come to Arsenal for sub £100k a week when Man City will pay you double?

[SMD]

If you think a football player is ready or 'produced' at 16 then you really don't understand youth football.

[Dude Ranch]

You make that sound like its a massive criticism of Arsenal but how is it any different to anyone else. Who else is producing even a reasonalbe amount of young talent through their youth system that ends up as regular first team players amongst the big clubs? No one.

Considering we've put all, or most, of our eggs in the player development basket and Wenger has this reputation for bringing youth through we've not done done very well. I'm still waiting for this list of players we've produced. One very good player since Ashley Cole is my claim. Before him? Parlour? Merson? I'm not expecting six players a year but there's no-one bar Wilshere that you'd hang your hat on becoming a decent regular.

As for transfer dealings. Well, I'm assuming you are talking about the incomings as Arsene has made absolute fortunes on bringing players for peanuts and selling them for millions. He has also been proven right so many times about when a player is either not up to it ability or attitude wise or have had their best years and moved them on, normally for a profit.

I hope the millions we've brought in from sales has brought you much enjoyment. And as for being proven right about getting rid of players, he's ditched some rubbish for not much money and made good money on others. We haven't spent it though. He also broke up a brilliant side to make way for a rubbish one.

[phresh]

As an Arsenal fan I'm making assumptions about Ronaldo for which I apologise although I do seem to remember him making an impact pretty much immediately.

Fabregas is a product of Barcelona. There are many videos of him and Messi doing their stuff in the Barca youth. He came to Arsenal with pretty much everything he needed to get where he is today. I'm sure Wenger has influenced him greatly but the ability was already there. He is just one of those freaks of nature like Messi, Rooney or Wilshere where they are almost born with it.

With both players their natural ability was evident from when they joined their clubs but I also think that the managers have had a massive part to play in developing that natural talent effectively on the pitch in match situations. Basically, I think both players may not have developed into the players they are today had they maybe joined other clubs.

[CandyBob]

If you think a football player is ready or 'produced' at 16 then you really don't understand youth football.

Did I say that? I was talking about Fabregas.

What I do know is that Fabregas made his debut at 16 and is our youngest ever first team goalscorer. At 17 he made 20+ starts in the PL and was awesome. Rooney made his debut at 16, as did Wilshere. Messi made his debut at 16 odd I believe and is the youngest Barca player to score a league goal. These players were ready and had the ability.

[SMD]

Did I say that? I was talking about Fabregas.

What I do know is that Fabregas made his debut at 16 and is our youngest ever first team goalscorer. At 17 he made 20+ starts in the PL and was awesome. Rooney made his debut at 16, as did Wilshere. Messi made his debut at 16 odd I believe and is the youngest Barca player to score a league goal. These players were ready and had the ability.

One of these players was carefully managed in his introduction, one was a physical freak of nature and one is now constantly picking up injuries.

[CandyBob]

With both players their natural ability was evident from when they joined their clubs but I also think that the managers have had a massive part to play in developing that natural talent effectively on the pitch in match situations. Basically, I think both players may not have developed into the players they are today had they maybe joined other clubs.

I can't speak for Ronaldo but Fab made his debut at 16 and made 20 something appearances the following season and didn't look out of place. This was while playing with the Invincibles pretty much.

I don't disagree with what you are saying though. For me Wenger and Ferguson are the best managers in the world and must have had a massive influence.