Arsenal

[Steve007]

Lansbury is joining Norwich tomorrow apparently. Talk about a fire sale. What's the point of loan deals if the player performs well, displays a good attitude then you immediately sell them? It's a legitimate question I think.

Lansbury is going to be a decent steady player. I'd have been cheesed off if he was loaned out for the season as I think he could do a job for us as a squad player (he couldn't do any worse than Denilson!). If he's sold I am going to be very annoyed & start to question the ambition of the club more than I already am. Depending on who you listen to, no one of note is going to come through the doors before the season starts.

[CandyBob]

One of these players was carefully managed in his introduction, one was a physical freak of nature and one is now constantly picking up injuries.

I don't see how that changes the fact that all of them became important first team players around the age of 16/17 and so had the ability to do so. If you mean whether it was right to introduce someone to the physical efforts of playing in the PL at 16 then that's another arguement.

[SMD]

I don't see how that changes the fact that all of them became important first team players around the age of 16/17 and so had the ability to do so. If you mean whether it was right to introduce someone to the physical efforts of playing in the PL at 16 then that's another arguement.

Well you brought up three players who really aren't representative of what goes on in youth football. And Fabregas is a good argument that just because you're good enough doesn't mean you should play that regularly that young. Look at Barcelona, their youngsters get gradually eased in.

Look at someone like Iniesta, who, like Fabregas, isn't a physical phenomenon and grew in importance and stature:

Barcelona B

2000–01 10

2001–02 30

2002–03 14

Barcelona

2002–03 9

2003–04 17

2004–05 46

These are total appearances, so including subs and cup games.

Iniesta is 3 years older and yet only had his first full season the same year Fabregas did.

[Dude Ranch]

I can't speak for Ronaldo but Fab made his debut at 16 and made 20 something appearances the following season and didn't look out of place.

From the first proper look at Fabregas it was obvious he was the real deal. As with Wilshere, I can't see how he wouldn't have become a star wherever he'd ended up.

[wev]

I think the hallmark of a 'successful' club is the ability to sign big name players. After all, there can only be one winner at the end of the season so judging purely on winning trophies is a bit shortsighted. No one really seems to care about anything at than the CL and the PL.

That said, big name players no longer seem to desire playing for Arsenal.

Since when have we gone out (under Wenger anyway) and signed a big name player? I can only think of Arshavin and he was pretty unknown until the previous summer anyway, maybe Pires? Henry was struggling at Juventus, van Persie wasn't a big name and was risking throwing his career away after clashing with the Feyenoord manager on a consistent basis, Anelka was unheard of outside of France (and this was the days before fans could watch whatever games they wanted via sopcast), Overmars may have been a big name but he was a risk due to his prior injury record, Okay Campbell was a huge signing for us both on and off the pitch, Ljunberg was relatively unknown until he scored against England, we've already discussed Fabregas and Vieira was the biggest surprise of the lot.

They're probably Wengers most famous signings, and only a handful of them were really well known prior to signing for us and two were bought after succesful European Championships (Pires and Arshavin).

[Petrousgyre]

Cleverley, Morrison, De Laet, Welbeck, Ronaldo, Gibson, Evans (x2), Rafael & Fabio, Pogba, Obertan, Macheda, Tunnicliffe..

A few lol's in there - none more so than Gibson, he arrived at the tender age of 18, he's now 23 and has developed into possibly the worst player I've ever seen play for United. He wouldn't get within a mile of the Arsenal midfield.

[Steve007]

That said, big name players no longer seem to desire playing for Arsenal.

Even a teenager from Costa Rica told us to go and do one

[hercules]

It'll be a shame if Lansbury does go as like most fans I would have liked to see him get some games, he is one of a few that has an engine and that's something we need in our team. I don't believe our youth project is flawed as it is designed to find a "wilshere" out of all the average players. Also I don't buy into the theory that ronaldo, Rooney and fabregas would have come through regardless of who managed them as so many players have talent but go awol or don't make it for many reasons. It's the way the clubs nurture them and the man management, keeping the player on the right path and helping them grow as men aswell as footballers which makes the real difference in their careers.

[Dude Ranch]

Also I don't buy into the theory that ronaldo, Rooney and fabregas would have come through regardless of who managed them as so many players have talent but go awol or don't make it for many reasons. It's the way the clubs nurture them and the man management, keeping the player on the right path and helping them grow as men aswell as footballers which makes the real difference in their careers.

I do believe they would have made it. They've got it, they're not the type to have gone AWOL or pissed their talent away. Rooney might be a chav nutcase but he's a winner. There might be players who need to be saved from themselves but those mentioned, and Wilshere, don't fit into that category IMO. They don't all need guidance outside of their family and their own desire to succeed.

[mop]

A lot of people seem to have done lost their minds. I blame the off-season.

[hercules]

Due to his friends wilshere has already had a few problems so I personally don't agree with you dude. I think a player can easily be led astray. Look at rooney's situation last year were he nearly joined city?! These players look up to fervid and wenger and their words of wisdom hold alot of weight with these young impressionable players

[CandyBob]

I saw Lansbury a bit in the reserves and watched a few games for the teams he was loaned to when they were available and he was alright wasn't he?

I think all he could have done for us would have been a job but it wouldn't have been any good for his development. He isn't good enough to be considered a starter and I wonder how much the players themselves have to do with it. Maybe he could see he would only ever be bit part and requested a move.

It's seems in these situations its immediately the club or Arsene's fault but maybe he didn't want to be sitting on the bench.

[Jonathan_Kerr]

Since when have we gone out (under Wenger anyway) and signed a big name player? I can only think of Arshavin and he was pretty unknown until the previous summer anyway, maybe Pires? Henry was struggling at Juventus, van Persie wasn't a big name and was risking throwing his career away after clashing with the Feyenoord manager on a consistent basis, Anelka was unheard of outside of France (and this was the days before fans could watch whatever games they wanted via sopcast), Overmars may have been a big name but he was a risk due to his prior injury record, Okay Campbell was a huge signing for us both on and off the pitch, Ljunberg was relatively unknown until he scored against England, we've already discussed Fabregas and Vieira was the biggest surprise of the lot.

They're probably Wengers most famous signings, and only a handful of them were really well known prior to signing for us and two were bought after succesful European Championships (Pires and Arshavin).

I don't have the knowledge of most here (so I can't really dispute your claims), having only really followed Arsenal since I started living with a football-mad Pom 6 years ago (who lured me astray from rugby). But wasn't Bergkamp a big-name signing? Or are you saying that we've always been a club that makes smart signings, not big signings?

I guess my point is, as a relatively new follower of the sport, it just feels like many players don't jump at the chance to play for us, just as they don't jizz their pants at a chance to play for say, Fulham. As Steve007 said 'even a teenager from Costa Rica told us to do one.' It shouldn't be that way if we're one of the big successful clubs. I guess once the Fairplay rules get enforced (ha!) and clubs can't just throw ludicrous amounts of money at players, we might see players choose the best club for them, all things being equal. But that's the optimist in me.

[hercules]

Who genuinely believes we will make a couple of major signings? And if so who? I personally feel no different from the end of last season where I said we won't sign anyone major for the positions we need i.e centre back and defensive midfield. Shame really but the squad is probably weaker than last year overall atm.

[TonyPlay]

Wenger didnt sign Bergkamp

[Daley]

I guess once the Fairplay rules get enforced (ha!) and clubs can't just throw ludicrous amounts of money at players, we might see players choose the best club for them, all things being equal. But that's the optimist in me.

Man City are about to sign Aguero for a reported £38m and last week they signed a huge sponsorship/stadium naming deal with a company related or part-owned by their owners.

Ha indeed.

At the moment there is pretty much no reason to sign for Arsenal if you are a top class player. Want big wages? Loads of clubs pay more. Want trophies? Much better chance elsewhere. It's why I think we have such trouble signing players. We can't offer a better deal than most other "big clubs". Or even match it in some cases.

[CandyBob]

I don't have the knowledge of most here (so I can't really dispute your claims), having only really followed Arsenal since I started living with a football-mad Pom 6 years ago (who lured me astray from rugby). But wasn't Bergkamp a big-name signing? Or are you saying that we've always been a club that makes smart signings, not big signings?

I guess my point is, as a relatively new follower of the sport, it just feels like many players don't jump at the chance to play for us, just as they don't jizz their pants at a chance to play for say, Fulham. As Steve007 said 'even a teenager from Costa Rica told us to do one.' It shouldn't be that way if we're one of the big successful clubs. I guess once the Fairplay rules get enforced (ha!) and clubs can't just throw ludicrous amounts of money at players, we might see players choose the best club for them, all things being equal. But that's the optimist in me.

I don't get your point in all honesty.

The problem with the transfer market is that since Chelsea and now Man City have been taken over by oil barons the top players, and their agents especially, try to wangle the best deal. As a team who can't pay the highest wages a top player like Yaya Toure for example, will always go to a club who can pay him the most. In Man City's case they can pay him close to 200k a week. That's primarily why Adebayor left.

As Wev stated we have always been a club who has bought sensibly. I believe even Bergkamp's career at the time was struggling if you can believe that. Arsene is quoted as saying that many agents are always knocking on his door, it's just not going to be the agents of players like Messi, Kaka or Ronaldo. We don't operate at the level.

[Art Vandelay]

Who genuinely believes we will make a couple of major signings? And if so who? I personally feel no different from the end of last season where I said we won't sign anyone major for the positions we need i.e centre back and defensive midfield. Shame really but the squad is probably weaker than last year overall atm.

I'm not getting too down about it as there's still about a month of the transfer window left, but if the last 6 years have taught us anything it's that I wouldn't hold my breath about signings. Each summer there's been clear, obvious and serious areas in which the squad needed strengthening but time and time again they've not been addressed and we'll sign another forward instead. The squad as it stands is weaker than last season which was an unqualified disaster. I'm going to side with patience and blind delusion for August I think.

[wev]

Yeah Bergkamp was frustrated at Inter Milan when he signed for us from what I understand

[Daley]

Yeah Bergkamp was frustrated at Inter Milan when he signed for us from what I understand

He had a bit of a nightmare out there. They didn't really know what to do with him. He was the next big thing and scored goals for fun at Ajax. Inter signed him and played him as the front-man rather than a number 10 and he hated it and wasn't doing well. To think Bruce Rioch signed one of our greatest ever players is amazing. (OK it was really David Dein but it doesn't sound so amazing put like that.)

[CandyBob]

Do you think that a lot of last seasons end of season problems were down to our best players not playing enough?

The spine of the team spent a fair portion of it injured. Vermaelen didn't play at all, Fab started 29 games in all competitions and was substitued in a fair few of those and RvP started 33 across all competitions. To be there or there abouts (which we were until the last few games) you need your spine to be starting 30+ league games, not just 25-30 in all competitions. Even Nasri missed 10 league games.

I don't see us weaker at the moment. Wilshere will be better, Ramsey is fit, Vermaelen and RvP (for now) look fully fit and we've signed a pretty exciting looking forward and lost a cronic mistake maker in Clichy. I'd love a CB to come in and the club have stated they are working on it but things don't look to bad.

[Art Vandelay]

But selling Clichy, who's statistics will tell you is a very good, experienced defender with someone who's already in the squad can in no way be described as any sort of progress. Who's backing him up? The perennially dreadful Traore - a player who by no conventional standard could even be described as a fullback. If Eboue leaves we're replacing him with someone who's played half a dozen games in League 1. Jenkinson might be good, but no-one could suggest it's not a risk.

Gervinho is a great signing and a good piece of business, but of all the signings we needed to make yet another versatile forward with no fixed position and likes to drop deep wouldn't be my top priority. Getting rid of Denilson is something we all wanted, but who's replacing his role as the quasi-holding midfielder? Or are we still expecting Song to play every last game no matter how awfully he plays? Presumably step forward Frimpong? You watch Man Utd before September, I can all but guarantee they won't be left with Darron Gibson taking over from Paul Scholes.

As I say though I'll wait until the end of the window before going bananas but it's looking increasingly likely I'll be doing just that.

[hercules]

Clichy was still better than Gibbs and that is what we are gonna see this year, until he gets injured of course. Yes players are coming back from long injuries but at the same time fabregas may not be here and who's to say nasri will be committed? We are very short in areas that we have been short in for a while which probably still won't be addressed and all we seem to be doin is selling players slowly. If we do sign a centre back I can't see it being one we would want (cahill, samba) and I doubt we will sign a left back aswell.

[CandyBob]

But selling Clichy, who's statistics will tell you is a very good, experienced defender with someone who's already in the squad can in no way be described as any sort of progress. Who's backing him up? The perennially dreadful Traore - a player who by no conventional standard could even be described as a fullback. If Eboue leaves we're replacing him with someone who's played half a dozen games in League 1. Jenkinson might be good, but no-one could suggest it's not a risk.

Gervinho is a great signing and a good piece of business, but of all the signings we needed to make yet another versatile forward with no fixed position and likes to drop deep wouldn't be my top priority. Getting rid of Denilson is something we all wanted, but who's replacing his role as the quasi-holding midfielder? Or are we still expecting Song to play every last game no matter how awfully he plays? Presumably step forward Frimpong? You watch Man Utd before September, I can all but guarantee they won't be left with Darron Gibson taking over from Paul Scholes.

As I say though I'll wait until the end of the window before going bananas but it's looking increasingly likely I'll be doing just that.

I think another defender is the best we can hope for on the transfer side of things. They have said they are working on it "night and day" apparently so they are aware its a problem.

I can see Vermaelen filling in for Gibbs more than Traore (assuming we are after a CB) and is Jenkinson more of a risk than Eboue? Would Ramsey be playing Denilsons part this season?

[hercules]

Wouldn't Parker be the ideal fit for midfield though? Either on loan or buying? He's experienced and will always give 100% and wouldn't cost alot. It seems that we now sell squad players to replace them with younger untested players which is pretty bad

[CandyBob]

Clichy was still better than Gibbs and that is what we are gonna see this year, until he gets injured of course. Yes players are coming back from long injuries but at the same time fabregas may not be here and who's to say nasri will be committed? We are very short in areas that we have been short in for a while which probably still won't be addressed and all we seem to be doin is selling players slowly. If we do sign a centre back I can't see it being one we would want (cahill, samba) and I doubt we will sign a left back aswell.

Nasri has looked commited in the training videos and pictures on the official site so hopefully his desire to perform outweighs anything else.

[Daley]

Parker would fit right in with our current squad's clean bill of health.

Do not want.

Would rather take a chance on Frimpong.

[CandyBob]

Wouldn't Parker be the ideal fit for midfield though? Either on loan or buying? He's experienced and will always give 100% and wouldn't cost alot. It seems that we now sell squad players to replace them with younger untested players which is pretty bad

Wasn't there something about the signing on fee or wages that Parker was after were extortionate that stopped a couple of moves?

He's commited as you say but if Fab stays then he would be in place of Song or Wilshere? Not sure Arsene would be up for that.

[hercules]

It's about having more competition, we need someone to really push song to up his game and frimpong won't exactly do that

[CandyBob]

There was a story on Sky this morning about us bidding for Mata? Would we be happy for him to come in and Nasri to go? Had a good season for Valencia.