Zelda: Twilight Princess

[Monkeyboy]

Right. That's it. I'm going to rewrite the entire game. Every cutscene. Every location. Every boss. Every character. Every line of dialogue. Every scrap of mythology. Every single little fucking detail: rewritten. Twilight Princess: Reimagined. Then I am going to post it in the Creative Folder, and you are all going to read it, and you are all going to declare it ingenious, and thus you will all come to recognise Twilight Princess for the underwhelming, unimaginitive, unfulfilling work of anus it truly is. Yes. Just wait.

Well, it's still better than playing a Need for Speed game.

[imp]

but isn't that the point - Link is always just a normal dude who finds out he has a purpose. The only Zelda where his origins were a really unknown was TOoT, because he was an elf.

In this game, he's a human - but all the humans in TP have pointy ears.

Amongst the many things that Zelda games always do well are 'endings'. I still rank the ending of TOoT as being the best game ending ever (the whole thing, the fight with Gannon in both forms, the escape from the tower etc)... if TP is anything as good as that, I might just burst.

But - the pain - I don't want this game to end. I absoloutely love it.

Actually, since OoT, isn't Link a described as a Hylian, rather than an elf or human?

[Number 28]

but isn't that the point - Link is always just a normal dude who finds out he has a purpose. The only Zelda where his origins were a really unknown was TOoT, because he was an elf.

Yeah, I know his point is that he's a blank canvas an all, and he's just a 'link' between the player and the game, I just felt that as they've beefed up the story in some places, it feels a bit lacking in others. Basically I was just curious as to what happened to his parents...It'd have been a master stroke if they were in the basement for you to discover with the lantern.

[Aardvark]

Have you been round the basement as a wolf?

No, I haven't either, but how else would you know where to dig?

[Davros sock drawer]

Was there anything about the game you didn't like? And do you play many other games?

Yes, and no. I have a few minor misgivings, mainly around the reward/balancing stuff. As has been discussed, a lot of the secrets need a bigger pay-off than a 100 rupee piece that won't fit in your wallet. That's always been the case with Zelda, but it's the only thing I would like to see "fixed".

But in most other respects I think it was a tremendous game. 85 hours, not bored once. In fact, never less than entranced. I'm still itching to fire it up today and find the last few things, which says quite a lot, I think.

Not sure what relevance your other question has. I'm a "veteran" gamer if you like, but I'm certainly not hardcore. I definitely try to enjoy my games and get the most out of them these days, and I like to take a positive attitude, not looking for faults, involving my other half in the puzzles etc. Regardless, I know there's not a lot out there to compete with TP, at least until Okami comes out in Feb.

I look forward to Spore trying to "out-magic" Twilight Princess. Good luck with that mate!

In fact since I'm up so early, I might as well relate my favourite moments:

The Baboon, and his arse. The hilarious fight with him on the pillars, knocking him off and giving him a good spanking.

Faron Woods. Best new music in a Zelda game for years. A chap with a bird's nest in his afro.

The gale boomerang. That "Ching, ching, ching, ching, ching!" sound when you lock onto 5 floor tiles, suck up those bastard centipedes, and give 'em what for with some sharp swipes of the remote.

That first, panicky, frantic trip into Twilight, scampering across the rooftops of Hyrule Castle, and meeting Zelda.

The Iron Boots. Realising you can fall into a magnetic stream, and select the boots mid-air to get zapped onto the magnetic ore.

The Gorons, just chilling in the Hot Spring. I could go for some of that.

Sumo!

Malo Mart. The best in-shop dancing, and most sarcastic owner, ever.

The Zora Queen, appearing as a ghost in Kakariko Village, leading you to her grave as that music from OoT plays, and telling you how she was executed by Zant. Shivers.

Talking of shivers, that amazing cut scene with several blank-eyed Links.

Armies of mini-skeletons, and the horrendous return of the Re-deads. At least they don't bum you anymore.

The Chus. From little circular blobs in the 2d games, to slithering malevolence, via Windwaker's comedy bobble heads. In fact, all the re-imagined enemies, all done superb justice. Massive spiders, rock hard Iron Knuckles, cheeky Porcupine/Hookshot the shell off thingies.

Invisible ghost rats!

Sensing spirits in Castle Town and Kakariko village. Following the childrens' scent.

The improved, all-new Epona. Hya! Hya! Wheeeee!

The Spinner. The boss you fight with it.

Yeti soup. Yeti love.

The Ball and Chain. Ker-smash!

Real, bona-fide head scratchers in dungeons. The block puzzles. The Temple of Time puzzle.

Saria's Song. The Skull Kid. Mannequins. Say no more. Pure bliss.

And then, you go back...and you travel back in time into The Temple proper. And it has the music, and the sunlight, and the stained glass and the...holy shit, this is the next Dungeon!

The Zora Armour. The Zoras, full stop. The massive waterfalls, shimmering in the early morning light.

Lake Hylia, and the lovely music which accompanies it. The fact that it's probably bigger alone in size than the whole of Hyrule field in OoT . And then, the sheer insanity of the cannon, and the Chicken Game. "Hi-iiii!". Doodle doo, doodle doo, doodle doo, de de de, dooo, de-doooo.

Castle town. Singing in the square. People shitting themselves when you run around as the wolf, and the guards' cowardly attempts to do something about it. Finding the bar. Jovani's house. Cats! Innovative Regional Pricing. "elihwa sekat gnidaol". Agitha's house, and later seeing her out and about, collecting bugs.

Jousting. Finally beating that orc bloke, and him just giving you the key. "I always go with the winning side. It's all I've ever known."

Riding The Boars. Roast Boar. Heart Piece inside. Inquisitiveness rewarded. Satisfaction get!

Double Clawshot. The boss you fight with them. The rain, the wind (thanks Pledge and Linkster for keeping me spoiler-free on that), the SotC style mounting and stabbing. The Sky Temple in general.

The Twilight Palace. The hand! Like the Floor Masters, but even better.

The music in general. The piano piece which plays when you're trying to save Midna. In the rain. The Hyrule Castle theme from LttP, mashed up with Ganondorf's theme. Shivers, again.

Midna's real form. Both of them. Babe, but a weird one who would be up for kinky stuff I reckon.

Horseback combat. WITH GANONDORF!

Watching the kids travel home at last. Midna's goodbye...

I could, and probably will, go on. Purest gaming gold.

[R0b]

Edit - sorted.

Edit again - not sorted!

eastern bridge:

ow on earth do I get hot springwater to the goron on time?

[Davros sock drawer]

Robert,

Don't do what I did, which is to try to put Hot Spring Water in a bottle and get it to him on time. You need to wait for a specific event.

Assuming you've triggered that, I found it's best to just dodge everything, and only to put the water down if you're sure you have space. If you take the shortest route, you can afford to put it down, draw the baddies away, kill them, and then carry on. However, I must admit that when I did it I got lucky and wasn't attacked much.

[Cyhwuhx]

Oh do shut up Spore, the ending was gorgeous. Very moving I thought, albeit in a fairly subtle way.

Edit: What Gorf King said. Say what you like about TP, the last hour and the credit sequence are marvellous.

.::: Exactly the problem at hand.

The entire game is cut up and Nintendo doesn't know what to do.

The first 4 dungeons and all around it are cinematic.

The next set is bare-bones.

And then it turns subtle?

Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. The in-your-face cinematics of the first hours are completely abandoned later on and a boss is introduced that will only satisfy people who have played previous Zelda's. The final fight might be a wet dream to its fans, but for the love of god, it's a terrible boss to everyone else. And then I'm not even discussing mechanics (which are even more woeful compared to all other rather fun bosses in the game).

Zant is the only thing the game has for a real boss, trying to pull you into what makes the game great. Ganondorf is simply the fan-service they just had to include. The ending doesn't gel at all with how the game was started.

There is closure, but the story-arcs aren't finished. Really, it's plain wrong. The dubious two final shots only add to the confusion. Somewhere half-way the game Nintendo literally lost the plot and it shows. The credits are loosely in the vein of what ALttP started, but it only manages to serve as a recollection of who you've met, not what happens now that you've saved... Well what did you save anyway? Zelda is suddenly absent. Midna goes away in a moment that is the emotional equivalent of opening a mussel. And the only truly emotional scene they could have had is turned into an abortion. Just... what?

Remember the vision at the fourth spirit's spring?

Now compare that to the style of the ending.

It's as if the captain was changed somewhere half-way the project.

Good for you if Ganon makes you swoon. But to call this a proper ending is madness. Story-wise TP is all but finished. And there really isn't a good excuse for it. They've had plenty of time.

[Davros sock drawer]

I'm sorry, that's like reading another language to me. I can't imagine what it must be like to look at the game in that way.

I'm too busy thinking "Woo hoo! I'm fighting Ganondorf on a horse!" to care about whether it's paying lip-service to the fans or not. The low-key ending felt like purest OoT to me. The stories in Zelda have never been about over the top bombast, they've been about melancholy, about small, subtle things, like friendship, and growing up. What did you want, a BIG EXPLOSION? Seeing Colin, who has looked up to Link throughout the whole game, with his wooden sword and shield, may not be earth shattering to you, but to a sensitive soul like me it's delightful.

[Cyhwuhx]

I'm sorry, that's like reading another language to me. I can't imagine what it must be like to look at the game in that way.

I'm too busy thinking "Woo hoo! I'm fighting Ganondorf on a horse!" to care about whether it's paying lip-service to the fans or not. The low-key ending felt like purest OoT to me. The stories in Zelda have never been about over the top bombast, it's been about melancholy, about small, subtle things, like friendship, and growing up. What did you want, a BIG EXPLOSION?

.::: See? The OOT-bits are in a way wrecking the thing. You don't even see what it's doing to the story. And yes the Zelda's might have been about that story-wise. But why get people's hopes up with the first set of cinematics then? Why pretend you are going to go LotR "on our arses" and then decide to just drop the entire thing halfway? The story could've been concluded far better than this. Midna alone presents so much opportunity, it's criminal.

Trust me, I'm all for subtle endings, but they have to fit. TP is a mess in that respect.

OOT had the same style throughout the game and closure, as well as a strong opening towards the rest of the series. (I may not like the game, but story-wise it was pretty iconic.)

ICO had the same style throughout the game and about as much closure you can get in the most subtle way I can think of.

TP seems to want to start OOT-like and end ICO-like. They have two styles clashing. Great if you forgot the start, but I'm not suffering from amnesia.

TP is like GoW's ending only worse, because in Zelda the story is actually a pretty large chunk of the experience. If you're too busy to care about it, then you are not playing it for the game. You're just getting a Zelda-fix, in which case they could've remade one of the CD-I games, slapped OOT references in and set the ending to "Ganondorf" and be done with it.

Excuse me for expecting more from a flagship-title.

[Darren]

We've finally started this after getting it for Christmas. Only done the very first bits in the village and the woods but it seems great already.

However we only had a look out of curiosity as we're still (re-)playing Ocarina and I told the daughter we wouldn't start this properly until that's done. We're up to the Shadow temple boss so there's not too much left to do. I just want her to see the ending of OoT before getting stuck into this.

I think when we get back to Twilight Princess we might restart from the very beginning.

[KesDragon]

lots of wonderful stuff about Twilight Princess

Man that was beautiful. Reading this made me want to start the game all over again

[Broker]

Right, I seem to be stuck, Probably just being a retard though but I'm really paranoid that its one of those gam breaking bugs I've heard about.

After the second duggeon I've gone into the Twilight and followed llias scent round castle town and then headed back out and found Zoras Domain. Got to the bit with all the frozen Zoras underneath me and Minda tells me that I need to go back. Now when I got onto the big bird thing to fly there there was another way to go overlooking Lake Hylia which it was insinuated was the path to the next dungeon. The problem I have is that as I did that flying part to get to the area with the ice and the Zora throne I can't go back the way I came (or can't see a way to) and if I warp to one of the older warp points I can't get accross the bridge that was broken by the Twilight when I crossed it. Because of this I can't find a way back to lake Hylia to try the other path and I'm really worried I've missed a warp point or something.

[Pupponvesh 2]

I just finished it. It took me around 50 hours.

I'd say it's pretty bloody good. It's not the best Zelda I've played (that's OoT) but it's much better than The Wind Waker, even though it doesn't look as good.

However, as much as I enjoyed it I thought from a gameplay perspective it was probably the wobbliest yet. There were too many times when the "design language" was broken. Like jumping gaps with the Midna jump, or applying certain logic to particular puzzles. It didn't seem to gel as well as previous Zelda's.

I do think they succeeded in putting in quite a few new ideas amongst all the old favourites. Some of the twists giving to the older weapons were fantastic. However, all of the new weapons were criminally underused. Also, I liked the fact that they tried new things with certain dungeons (#5 in particular).

Looks wise I think the game has just come out at the wrong time. Shadow of the Colossus did the whole "roaming-around-on-a-horse-thing" much better, and that's been out a year. Plus Okami has stole its thunder regarding the wolf thing. And although certain aspects of the game looked great (characters, forests) for such a big game it can look quite bad at times.

Probably the best game I've played this year. 9/10.

[Davros sock drawer]

.::: See? The OOT-bits are in a way wrecking the thing. You don't even see what it's doing to the story. And yes the Zelda's might have been about that story-wise. But why get people's hopes up with the first set of cinematics then? Why pretend you are going to go LotR "on our arses" and then decide to just drop the entire thing halfway? The story could've been concluded far better than this. Midna alone presents so much opportunity, it's criminal.

Trust me, I'm all for subtle endings, but they have to fit. TP is a mess in that respect.

OOT had the same style throughout the game and closure, as well as a strong opening towards the rest of the series. (I may not like the game, but story-wise it was pretty iconic.)

ICO had the same style throughout the game and about as much closure you can get in the most subtle way I can think of.

TP seems to want to start OOT-like and end ICO-like. They have two styles clashing. Great if you forgot the start, but I'm not suffering from amnesia.

TP is like GoW's ending only worse, because in Zelda the story is actually a pretty large chunk of the experience. If you're too busy to care about it, then you are not playing it for the game. You're just getting a Zelda-fix, in which case they could've remade one of the CD-I games, slapped OOT references in and set the ending to "Ganondorf" and be done with it.

Excuse me for expecting more from a flagship-title.

I just don't "get" where you're coming from at all with this.

When did it "go all LotR"? I thought it was stylistically coherent all the way through, with the story bookended marvellously by the Ordon Village stuff.

You basically sound like you had expectations for the game which didn't fit your vision of what you think a Zelda game should be. As ever though, I feel pretty happy to be the one sitting back thinking, "Ah, that was lovely" as the credits roll, rather than coldly dissecting it in the way you have. My detailed reminiscences of the game should tell you that I'm not content to just have any old Zelda game with Ganondorf slapped on, and that I do actually care about the content. In many ways, what you do forms its own story, which is why Zelda games have actually always been able to get away with the barest skeleton of a plot. Contrary to what you state, the storyline has never been a large part of any Zelda game - it's all about the "doing".

Still, you didn't like OoT or RE4 ( ), so to a large extent we have fundamentally irreconcilable viewpoints. Nevertheless, I'm glad you enjoed the bits you did (you did enjoy some of it, right?)

Right, I seem to be stuck, Probably just being a retard though but I'm really paranoid that its one of those gam breaking bugs I've heard about.

After the second duggeon I've gone into the Twilight and followed llias scent round castle town and then headed back out and found Zoras Domain. Got to the bit with all the frozen Zoras underneath me and Minda tells me that I need to go back. Now when I got onto the big bird thing to fly there there was another way to go overlooking Lake Hylia which it was insinuated was the path to the next dungeon. The problem I have is that as I did that flying part to get to the area with the ice and the Zora throne I can't go back the way I came (or can't see a way to) and if I warp to one of the older warp points I can't get accross the bridge that was broken by the Twilight when I crossed it. Because of this I can't find a way back to lake Hylia to try the other path and I'm really worried I've missed a warp point or something.

I don't want to give it away too much, but let's just say you should think back to something you've seen already on your travels, and how it might solve your current predicament.

As for how you physically go back, don't you just ride the Cannon to the top of Lake Hylia?

[Broker]

What cannon?

[Davros sock drawer]

Oops. I assumed you had explored Lake Hylia already?

[Super Craig]

Right, I seem to be stuck, Probably just being a retard though but I'm really paranoid that its one of those gam breaking bugs I've heard about.

After the second duggeon I've gone into the Twilight and followed llias scent round castle town and then headed back out and found Zoras Domain. Got to the bit with all the frozen Zoras underneath me and Minda tells me that I need to go back. Now when I got onto the big bird thing to fly there there was another way to go overlooking Lake Hylia which it was insinuated was the path to the next dungeon. The problem I have is that as I did that flying part to get to the area with the ice and the Zora throne I can't go back the way I came (or can't see a way to) and if I warp to one of the older warp points I can't get accross the bridge that was broken by the Twilight when I crossed it. Because of this I can't find a way back to lake Hylia to try the other path and I'm really worried I've missed a warp point or something.

There's a building near Lake Hylia where you can pay to fly back down.

[imp]

Right, I seem to be stuck, Probably just being a retard though but I'm really paranoid that its one of those gam breaking bugs I've heard about.

After the second duggeon I've gone into the Twilight and followed llias scent round castle town and then headed back out and found Zoras Domain. Got to the bit with all the frozen Zoras underneath me and Minda tells me that I need to go back. Now when I got onto the big bird thing to fly there there was another way to go overlooking Lake Hylia which it was insinuated was the path to the next dungeon. The problem I have is that as I did that flying part to get to the area with the ice and the Zora throne I can't go back the way I came (or can't see a way to) and if I warp to one of the older warp points I can't get accross the bridge that was broken by the Twilight when I crossed it. Because of this I can't find a way back to lake Hylia to try the other path and I'm really worried I've missed a warp point or something.

don't worry thor, the game breaking bugs aren't in the PAL Wii version or any GC version.

I think you have to figure out how to melt the ice before you can get back to lake hylia.

[Kelthink]

I guess this is a spoiler for those who completed the game:

Why do retards keep spouting "oh, the story isn't important"? If Nintendo are going to put so many cutscenes and try and put a story in it, they clearly think that the story is important. Except the story's so bloody incoherent and changes nearly entirely (and not in a good way, like Cyhwux says) as you go along. I didn't give a fuck about fighting Ganon in the end, he was so badly shoehorned into it.

[bcass]

I think with the story, they came up with a really good idea (Twilight Realm) but then they didn't know where to take it. The increasingly shorter gaps between dungeons was just becoming silly near the end. This game just wasn't ambitious enough, despite it's moments of brilliance. The wait for the ultimate Zelda game continues.

[Jarik]

For those who have a problem with the story I believe it's because that's never been the focus of Nintendo games combined with the fact that Link has always been deliberatley left as blank as possible so you can more easily put yourself in his place.

This used to be fine in the Snes/N64 era but story in games has moved on & we expect more from our videogame characters. Link never speaking, for instance is something that now seems to be holding back making a more interesting story & if there is one moment where Link should have said something it's near the end where

Link realises that Midna is about take on Ganon herself, reaches out to stop her & she teleports Him & Zelda away. Any other character would say something like "Midna!" No!" & him not doing that impresses on you just how limited his character development is. Later on in the ending there's even a little in-joke about his muteness with Midna asking him to say something, & it fading to the credits just as he opens his mouth.

The most we got about Link's backstory was what the other characters we saying about their life in the village prior to the start of the game. Though there was an oblique hint with the Hidden Skills

the last thing the knight says when he teaches you the last skill is "go & do not falter, my child!". He could have been just refering to Link as a younger person or he could have been literal. He may be one of Link's ancestors.

I'm not sure if Nintendo can keep Link a blank slate if they wish to make the games more story-fuelled. He either needs to say something & have a story of his own or they need to do a much better job of getting all the other characters to tell the main & his story.

[Colonel Panic]

Yes, and no. I have a few minor misgivings, mainly around the reward/balancing stuff. As has been discussed, a lot of the secrets need a bigger pay-off than a 100 rupee piece that won't fit in your wallet. That's always been the case with Zelda, but it's the only thing I would like to see "fixed".

But in most other respects I think it was a tremendous game. 85 hours, not bored once. In fact, never less than entranced. I'm still itching to fire it up today and find the last few things, which says quite a lot, I think.

I've always enjoyed your enthusiasm when it comes to certain games on this forum such as the Zeldas and Resi4 but while I loved Twilight Princess there's a lot more "wrong" with it in my eyes at least. While some of the other posters in this thread are being a bit *too* nitpicky a lot of them are making valid points that in many ways the Zelda series need a major overhaul as it's a little tired.

I can't argue with you that the game has buckets of atmosphere and charm but as I've mentioned in the past, the overworld feels like a major step back this time around and I really found the end two dungeons to be a bit of a chore. I just wanted to go get it over with! I wasn't disappointed with the final boss fight though. Plus the usual shit with weapons happened where some are barely used beyond the dungeon you find them in, including the...

spinner... green goblin!

Not sure what relevance your other question has. I'm a "veteran" gamer if you like, but I'm certainly not hardcore. I definitely try to enjoy my games and get the most out of them these days, and I like to take a positive attitude, not looking for faults, involving my other half in the puzzles etc. Regardless, I know there's not a lot out there to compete with TP, at least until Okami comes out in Feb.

The Baboon, and his arse. The hilarious fight with him on the pillars, knocking him off and giving him a good spanking.

Faron Woods. Best new music in a Zelda game for years. A chap with a bird's nest in his afro.

The gale boomerang. That "Ching, ching, ching, ching, ching!" sound when you lock onto 5 floor tiles, suck up those bastard centipedes, and give 'em what for with some sharp swipes of the remote.

That first, panicky, frantic trip into Twilight, scampering across the rooftops of Hyrule Castle, and meeting Zelda.

The Iron Boots. Realising you can fall into a magnetic stream, and select the boots mid-air to get zapped onto the magnetic ore.

The Gorons, just chilling in the Hot Spring. I could go for some of that.

Sumo!

Malo Mart. The best in-shop dancing, and most sarcastic owner, ever.

The Zora Queen, appearing as a ghost in Kakariko Village, leading you to her grave as that music from OoT plays, and telling you how she was executed by Zant. Shivers.

Talking of shivers, that amazing cut scene with several blank-eyed Links.

Armies of mini-skeletons, and the horrendous return of the Re-deads. At least they don't bum you anymore.

The Chus. From little circular blobs in the 2d games, to slithering malevolence, via Windwaker's comedy bobble heads. In fact, all the re-imagined enemies, all done superb justice. Massive spiders, rock hard Iron Knuckles, cheeky Porcupine/Hookshot the shell off thingies.

Invisible ghost rats!

Sensing spirits in Castle Town and Kakariko village. Following the childrens' scent.

The improved, all-new Epona. Hya! Hya! Wheeeee!

The Spinner. The boss you fight with it.

Yeti soup. Yeti love.

The Ball and Chain. Ker-smash!

Real, bona-fide head scratchers in dungeons. The block puzzles. The Temple of Time puzzle.

Saria's Song. The Skull Kid. Mannequins. Say no more. Pure bliss.

And then, you go back...and you travel back in time into The Temple proper. And it has the music, and the sunlight, and the stained glass and the...holy shit, this is the next Dungeon!

The Zora Armour. The Zoras, full stop. The massive waterfalls, shimmering in the early morning light.

Lake Hylia, and the lovely music which accompanies it. The fact that it's probably bigger alone in size than the whole of Hyrule field in OoT . And then, the sheer insanity of the cannon, and the Chicken Game. "Hi-iiii!". Doodle doo, doodle doo, doodle doo, de de de, dooo, de-doooo.

Castle town. Singing in the square. People shitting themselves when you run around as the wolf, and the guards' cowardly attempts to do something about it. Finding the bar. Jovani's house. Cats! Innovative Regional Pricing. "elihwa sekat gnidaol". Agitha's house, and later seeing her out and about, collecting bugs.

Jousting. Finally beating that orc bloke, and him just giving you the key. "I always go with the winning side. It's all I've ever known."

Riding The Boars. Roast Boar. Heart Piece inside. Inquisitiveness rewarded. Satisfaction get!

Double Clawshot. The boss you fight with them. The rain, the wind (thanks Pledge and Linkster for keeping me spoiler-free on that), the SotC style mounting and stabbing. The Sky Temple in general.

The Twilight Palace. The hand! Like the Floor Masters, but even better.

The music in general. The piano piece which plays when you're trying to save Midna. In the rain. The Hyrule Castle theme from LttP, mashed up with Ganondorf's theme. Shivers, again.

Midna's real form. Both of them. Babe, but a weird one who would be up for kinky stuff I reckon.

Horseback combat. WITH GANONDORF!

Watching the kids travel home at last. Midna's goodbye...

I could, and probably will, go on. Purest gaming gold.

I ask because while I'm not a hardcore games either, lately I've been getting much more into videogames again after an 18 month lull due to mmorpgs and EVERYTHING seems great, but I do find that Zelda isn't the cut above the rest that it used to be. I don't know if other games are getting better or it is getting worse and that bothers me a little. I'm a tragic Nintendo fanboy who's dying a little bit at a time.

I think you'll like Okami, it's got a great overworld and several towns with lots to do. A visual style that beats most games this year and some of the best music I've ever heard... Now I've had time to think about it, I think I actually preferred it overall to Twilight Princess, not that it's perfect mind, you can easily get overwhelmed with sidequests and the combat is... weird... until you get used to it.

[Kelthink]

For those who have a problem with the story I believe it's because that's never been the focus of Nintendo games combined with the fact that Link has always been deliberatley left as blank as possible so you can more easily put yourself in his place.

This used to be fine in the Snes/N64 era but story in games has moved on & we expect more from our videogame characters. Link never speaking, for instance is something that now seems to be holding back making a more interesting story & if there is one moment where Link should have said something it's near the end where

Link realises that Midna is about take on Ganon herself, reaches out to stop her & she teleports Him & Zelda away. Any other character would say something like "Midna!" No!" & him not doing that impresses on you just how limited his character development is. Later on in the ending there's even a little in-joke about his muteness with Midna asking him to say something, & it fading to the credits just as he opens his mouth.

The most we got about Link's backstory was what the other characters we saying about their life in the village prior to the start of the game. Though there was an oblique hint with the Hidden Skills

the last thing the knight says when he teaches you the last skill is "go & do not falter, my child!". He could have been just refering to Link as a younger person or he could have been literal. He may be one of Link's ancestors.

I'm not sure if Nintendo can keep Link a blank slate if they wish to make the games more story-fuelled. He either needs to say something & have a story of his own or they need to do a much better job of getting all the other characters to tell the main & his story.

I know Link is 'a blank slate'. He always has been. It's everything else that's my problem. The game's fine, the story's a bit of a mess, that's all.

[Davros sock drawer]

What a strange place this can be, where someone is called a retard for loving something unreservedly.

I think I'll leave you all to your bitterness and disappointment now. I'm still trying to work out how to get that chest in the fountain outside South Castle Town.

[Kelthink]

What a strange place this can be, where someone is called a retard for loving something unreservedly.

Being a fanboy isn't stupid? Alright then.

Having a go at people with perfectly valid opinions is equally strange, too.

[R0b]

Hi guys, it's me again, looking to drain your chests of Zelda knowledge.

I've heard much about the fishing hole, and would have thought, after completing the fourth dungeon, I'd have access to the area, wherever it is.

No?

[Davros sock drawer]

Being a fanboy isn't stupid? Alright then.

Having a go at people with perfectly valid opinions is equally strange, too.

Except I'm not a fanboy, I do have some criticisms, and I haven't had a go at anyone.

You carry on picking on someone for liking something if it makes you feel important. I'll carry on having a good time.

[scottcr]

so - finished 4th dungeon yesterday and went exploring today finding heart pieces and the likes. Some of the 'heart piece' areas are massive and very impressive.

Loving every minute of this - and it just gets better and better as the game goes on.

[Number 28]

I think I'll leave you all to your bitterness and disappointment now. I'm still trying to work out how to get that chest in the fountain outside South Castle Town.

I think the trouble with a lot of games these days is, you know how developers are under massive pressure to meet deadlines, and you (well, maybe not you then ) can spot exactly when and where in the game they must've said "ok, that'll do". With the amount of time and money spent, and the fact this is Zelda, you just expect the best. That's not to say it isn't a great achievement, and a tremendously fun game, it's just for us cynical and jaded oldies, anything suffering from neglect on the developer's part stands out like a sore thumb. The trouble is, the more content you shoehorn into a game to appease the high expectations of modern gamers, the more stuff is going to turn out weak, which is why older games, I feel, were polished to a much higher degree.

I'm still wondering about that chest too... I might just look at a faq, you know it's only going to be an orange rupee anyway.